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  1. #71
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    This a bloody huge topic that can not be covered adequately on a forum like this.
    Better to be discussed than not at all. A forum like this? Most of us discuss things like this off forum, for many, it gives birth to new ideas, would you stifle thoughts and ideas simply because it is not the place of your choice?

    I've written extensively on it in my book and dozens of times in various ways on my blog.
    But this is only your point of view which you are entitled to, but there also many other points of view which also deserve to be heard, this is what makes a conversation. If only one opinion is allowed to be voiced, then usually it is a dictatorship.

    You mentioned that semantics do matter, with regards to that, how do mountain lions play a part in the average Australian horse's daily life? Simply, they don't.

  2. #72
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    Jan 1970
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    Quote Originally Posted by HQ View Post
    Midnight wrote:

    "Agree with BAts. HQ should read the other posts before he comments. LOL .... not that he ever does."

    That's a pathetic response from a person who doesn't have a counter argument. When you have nothing to say you try to distract from the discussion by making it personal. It's a tired strategy Midnight.

    K8, I read your post twice and got so lost in the rambling I have no response. If you would like to try again and clarify your point I might have some thoughts.

    FNQ, what are you on about? What does semantics have to do with mountain lions - Australian or otherwise? And why are you talking about parliament, democracy and censorship in a discussion on horse training and behaviour?
    I agree I was rambling because it doesn't make sense to me either.

    It seems ok to apply as much force as you want in order to 'change a horse's mind'!?

    ...and that's not counted as 'making' him do something!? why?


    A kick in the guts feels like a kick in the guts even if you are telling the horse it's just to change your mind!?

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by k8 View Post
    I agree I was rambling because it doesn't make sense to me either.

    It seems ok to apply as much force as you want in order to 'change a horse's mind'!?

    ...and that's not counted as 'making' him do something!? why?


    A kick in the guts feels like a kick in the guts even if you are telling the horse it's just to change your mind!?
    Love it... Now if only those that think of themselves as superior can see the irony in your words, the world would be a better place, well cbh would.

  4. #74
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    FNQ, the forum is not a good place to discuss the topic because the concepts can be so difficult to explain that it would be far better to discuss it while demonstrating with a horse. An internet forum is an inadequate venue in this case. But I have a feeling that even with a horse doing exactly as I described you still wouldn't get it.

    I think you are confused regarding the meaning of the term "semantics" and the reference to a mountain lion. The use of mountain lion to illustrate a point is not even close to be a semantic error. Check the meaning.

    K8, the need to use strong pressure with a horse when necessary is part and parcel of choosing to train them. It's unavoidable. You can not train a horse without motivating him to change. That means trying to convince him that what he is doing is not in his best interest. This without doubt requires evoking some level of anxiety in a horse in order for him to have a change of thought about what he perceives is in his best interest. If that is not acceptable, I can't understand how you can train or ride horses.

    But nevertheless, putting a horse under pressure and even causing him anxiety is not a problem for a horse. They live with anxiety every day whether we are the cause or another horse or a strange event etc. It is the nature of horses to bounce from anxiety (sometimes high anxiety) to quiet calm and back again throughout their day. I suspect that's why they can live in the moment and not dwell over past trouble like humans do. It they remained anxious due to something that happened an hour ago, they would never have quiet moments because the next anxious moment is waiting around the corner constantly.

    Secondly, if a strong pressure like a solid kick was what was needed to gain a horse's attention then it means a soft kick didn't bother the horse, a mild kick didn't either and moderately firm kick also caused him no worry. It wasn't until he felt a strong kick was there enough pressure for him to take some notice. You've heard the expression "do as little as you can, but as much as you have to." Well, sometimes as much as you have to is everything we have, but to a horse it was just enough for him to give us a second thought. So I believe your assumption that a solid kick in the guts is automatically something that will traumatize a horse or cause him great concern is wrong. It might on a horse that was ready to pay attention with a light nudge of your calf, but probably won't bother too much a horse that was very dead to the leg or totally spaced out with something else. Read my blog from today about a horse called Archie in a letter from Debbie and you'll see that nothing the human was going to do would cause Archie much concern.

    Thirdly, the concept of being firm with a horse to get his attention is only about getting his attention. If you do cause a horse a worry when you get firm, the job becomes helping the horse to understand what it was about. Once you get his attention give him a job - direct his thought. If you can direct his thought the worry WILL dissipate. It will go away because when he has the thought, he wants to carry it out with his feet. Allowing him to carry out the thought will give him comfort because it is his thought to do it and not us making him move his feet- we get out of the way and let it happen.

    But when you try to make a horse move his feet when his thought is to not move or to move somewhere else, you maintain the worry in him because his thought is to do something else but he is being made to do what we want him to do. That's where you get resistance.

    So you might get firm to say to the horse "hey, I'm here listen - pay attention." When he gives you his attention you can then pick up your left rein and say "can you look over to the left?" When he looks to his left and you ask for a little life in his body and he takes his feet to the left with no worry and no resistance because that was where he was thinking. Remember a horse is always trying to get his feet to go where he is thinking. The result is that the anxiety you might have added when you got firm disappears because he is now able to carry out his own thought - which was to go left.

    If you don't get his attention and he is trying to go turn right because that's where he is thinking, then getting strong with the aids to try to make him go to the left will only increase the anxiety because you are separating the horse's thought from his feet. This causes horses deep anxiety.

    I know I have given very simple examples, but I hope it clears up some things for you.

  5. #75
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    Appreciate the time taken to reply HQ.

  6. #76
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    thank you for the time you take to write this stuff HQ
    it helps a lot to get ideas straight

    cheers
    '..his neigh is like the bidding of a monarch and his countenance enforces homage.'
    Shakespeare

  7. #77
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    Yep, Thanks HQ!!
    "What I'm working on here most people don't even know exists.. but it does exist.. and most people miss it." Ray Hunt

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