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midnightly
29-09-12, 11:50 PM
I don't mind sending the article I have scanned to those who are out of the country, incapable of getting to their local newsagent ... whatever.

If you live in Sydney, in Cranbourne, then get down to your newwsagent and buy your copy. Better still, pay for it to be sent to you.

I offered Munchkins a copy and have been inundated with people wanting me to send them the article.
That's fine, it's easy, I don't mind. What I mind is that half of you have full mailboxes, or whatever is your problem, and then I have to email or pm you to say I can't send the article ....

No more. Enough. Buy your magazines.

Sorry to those genuine people, but right now I feel I've been used and used and used .... by people who are too mean to pay the $7.95 for the magazine .... which provides a bloody good read every month anyway.

End of grump.

DB
30-09-12, 12:34 AM
There there Midders, you're just too kind. Big hug xx

devilbydesign
30-09-12, 12:37 AM
I guess I will buy it this time or read Bat's but normally I just find it full of crap.

DB
30-09-12, 12:40 AM
I always buy it, as I think we ought to take care of pretty much one or two of our own mags.

kizzy
30-09-12, 01:47 AM
Nothing the offer of a good red wouldn't fix.

pauper
30-09-12, 08:18 AM
"Grump" away Midnight you deserve to if you feel "used and taken advantage off"!

i wont be buying a copy not because i'm "cheap' but because i have no interest on spending my hard earned money filling the coffers of a magazine that allows such dribble in a clearly one sided article.

i also have no interest in reading yet another article with a adult having a tantrum cause things didnt turn out the way they wanted and to bag out someone like Berni who has put their heart and soul into helping the equestrian community and has also spent countless hours writing wonderful articles on Mary is a atrocious way to act! :mad:

and we are meant to look up to these higher level riders as someone to aspire to? not when they act like spoilt brats i wont be!

Chris Hartigan
30-09-12, 08:53 AM
Pttt - no Ryan's Rave this month :(:(

Linon
30-09-12, 09:15 AM
Pttt - no Ryan's Rave this month :(:(

Smart move - Hanna's diatribe was pure dynamite (gold!).

Let Heath have the month off - and it gives him time to assess the fallout from Hanna's hissyfit and the EA "review".

:)

Linon
30-09-12, 09:16 AM
Pttt - no Ryan's Rave this month :(:(

Smart move - Hanna's diatribe was pure dynamite (gold!).

Let Heath have the month off - and it gives him time to assess the fallout from Hanna's hissyfit and the EA "review".

:)

tgh05
30-09-12, 09:41 AM
We missed his rave and aksherly wondered if he was ok

Berni
30-09-12, 08:52 PM
I would love to be a fly on the wall down at Drysdale. I am sure the 3200 people who have now read about Mary outburst on Cyberhorse and the pretty negative responses was not the desired outcome. Mary has a wonderful ability to block out the reasons why people have problems with her, her memory is as short as her eyesight.

kizzy
01-10-12, 12:04 AM
Ouch!!!...

Chris Hartigan
01-10-12, 11:01 AM
What is further making me somewhat dumbfounded is that surely Mary would have to know that what she said would get back to the Olympic judges.

WE know what she said is NOT true

However she obviously believes what she said IS true, so just what effect does she think HER comments are going to have on HER future.
Bizarre to say the least.

munchkins
01-10-12, 11:59 AM
Mary referred previously to her London scores being affected by the "selection politics" in her THM blog entry of 20 August:

"It would have been over optimistic to expect a great score after all the negative publicity our team had suffered , but even so, inspite of feeling very happy with my test I was extremely disappointed with the score, especially looking at it afterwards in comparison to some other higher scored tests."

re-reading her THM blog just now makes for interesting reading - a couple of "classic" below :)

from 18 July blog entry:

"It was impossible not to be distracted by the events of the past weeks, but having the mental toughness to overcome such distractions is a very important part of being an Olympic athlete."

from 12 June blog entry:

"As I understand it selection is done mostly on the GP scores. The only requirement for the special is that, we had competed in the new Olympic Special twice, as far as the selection was concerned. I am guessing that this is because unless you get a good score in the GP then you don’t get to be in the special at the Olympics."

oh, good guess Mary ...

and from her 6 March blog entry:

"Another horse that is new on the scene and placed well in both the Grand Prix and the Special was another son of the Sandro Hit, Sancisco, ridden by Armenian rider, Carrie Schropf. This horse caught my eye in training, and is drop dead gorgeous. His owners sold him out of Germany, after the German FN refused to allow him to compete internationally, unless under a big name rider. Rather than giving his regular rider the sack, who had trained him and competed him to GP with very high National scores, they chose to sell to a rider who could show him internationally. This situation could be a clue as to why Germany has slipped on the international scene, as new outside riders are not encouraged, and given a fair chance."

for some reason, that final phrase brings to mind the colour "black", and pots & kettles - there is a saying isn't there :)

and finally sincere apologies to midnightly for inadvertently causing a tsunami of article requests to hit your inbox ...

midnightly
01-10-12, 02:20 PM
S'ok, munchkins ... we've survived. :)

Berni
01-10-12, 03:27 PM
Well researched Munchkins. From personal experience I have noted that Mary has a selective memory and she has forgotten that she has had lots of luck go HER way - such as the ride at the Sydney Olympics. This event saw the Australian dressage fans completely divided as on paper Rozzie should have been the one in our team.

The was not much between the scores of Exellent and Limbo, but at their 7 head to head battles leading up to the selector's decision, Rozzie was in front. It appeared that Rozzie had an "un-losable case" but the Court of Arbitration for Sport found in Mary's favour and Mary had the might of Justice Mark's legal team on her case. Deborah McNicol was the Chair of Dressage Australia and I believe the Chef d'Equipe.

Rozzie got to give a lunchtime display -whoopy do! She was very gracious, many would have refused this invitation. She got a bigger response from the crowd that the team riders.

midnightly
01-10-12, 03:33 PM
Yes Berni ... and here at Cyberhorse we all got rather bitter about that particular selection process too.

Rozzie did the early morning warm-up Grand Prix test for the judges. And Di Jenkin on Blackwood did the Special warm up later in the week. Or it may have been the other way around .... it's all a blur now. :)

But Excellent did a fabulous test - better than A LOT of the contestants and certainly better than our team. It was heartbreaking.

munchkins
01-10-12, 03:41 PM
But Excellent did a fabulous test - better than A LOT of the contestants and certainly better than our team. It was heartbreaking.

indeed - I remember clapping & cheering Rozzie & Excellent while wiping away the tears from my eyes ...

Linon
01-10-12, 03:44 PM
Berni,

I would like to try an experiment.

Next time that these riders are in for selection, if it is possible, get videos of the tests, get the score sheets, and then let the cyberhorse judges at it.

Now, some will mark a lot better than others, on the basis of the specific criteria, some will only be able to give and impression etc.

But I do wonder if the collective cyberhorse brain might not be a means by which we can predict which combinations may make better reps.

And then compare it to what the actual judges come up with... WEG - here we come!

:)

munchkins
01-10-12, 03:56 PM
Linon, I must be missing the point of your suggestion, as from what I can see & remember from history, there really are no problems either in Australia or in Europe with the scores given to our horses by officiating Judges.

Complications only arise when the selectors get their paws on the numbers - and there is just a hint of a pattern in that regard ...

Linon
01-10-12, 04:57 PM
Linon, I must be missing the point of your suggestion, as from what I can see & remember from history, there really are no problems either in Australia or in Europe with the scores given to our horses by officiating Judges.

Complications only arise when the selectors get their paws on the numbers - and there is just a hint of a pattern in that regard ...

Just would be interesting too see, on the publicly available video of performances, who we would select and why. We all have our opinions on why Hanna was selected etc, so just put the videos up (all taken from the one vantage point) of each of the contenders, give people the test score sheets to fill out and then do an analysis of what the cyberhorse hive came up with. Then we could see if any of our top ranked (say, top 5) were selected, and how they fared. I would also like to know what those statisticians came up with and how.

Might save us all a lot of grief if we could use their methodology.

And be a lot cheaper, easier, and less bullshit.

:(

munchkins
01-10-12, 05:11 PM
Linon, with respect, affection, & admiration et cetera, et cetera - we are merely the peanut gallery in this regard - & if I'm correct in thinking that you want to do a post London analysis, using your method then there are a few constraints ...

firstly, videos from same vantage point don't exist, in part because not all combinations competed at same events as part of selection process.

however, take a peek at the wonderful FEI database & find all the test results for any/all relevant combinations that were under consideration :)

https://data.fei.org/Result/CompetitionSearch.aspx

similar to you, I like to start with facts/numbers etc and this datbase is a fantastic resource - enjoy :)

munchkins
01-10-12, 05:13 PM
tried to add an FEI link - failed

devilbydesign
01-10-12, 06:08 PM
So I have paid my money and bought the magazine and read the article in anticipation of horrendous statements. Disappointed really!

While I don't know a lot about the issue, and in particular what happened with the last Olympics with Hayley, I think anyone who dismisses the claims about international snobbery based on Australia not having their sh#t together is ignorant - people, it happens in all sports, all the time! There are elitist members of every discipline and dominating countries and it is very hard to break into these circles in any sport including objective sport devoid of human judging, let alone subjective judging. What this Mary Hanna proposes that may happen or has happened could bloody well happen, don't kid yourself that it absolutely could not.

How about going half way around the world to compete in an event for Australia only to find that they have accidentally left you out of the draw....that's OK you say, there is more than 48hrs to the event, the rules say you can redraw the event..."yes, true, we can, but we won't". Now if you were a seeded player from X, Y, Z we would but your not, so we won't! Hey, its totally in the rules and forget that these players have spent in excess of $10k to get there...tough!

International snobbery at elite level sport is rife, it has taken years for the Australian gymnasts to gain some standing and most of that was based on the reputation of the imported coach from China to begin with, so they could be invited to events they wouldn't normally be invited to. Its the same in other sports, its about getting an in, and then if you embarrass the sport on an international stage, look out. We are a very little fish in the big ocean that is sport.

So whether her prediction comes true or not remains to be seen, but one thing I can say, her 'vision' is in no way at all far fetched from my experience and that of many others in other sports.


...oh and if you are going to tell me about how fair and impartial the judges always are, how many times have I seen posts on here about Anky or whoever winning an event even though their horse played up and someone else clearly did a better test. Just because it has 'international' in front of the title, does not mean that they are not influenced by the favourites, fads, commercial interests in the sport

Linon
01-10-12, 07:14 PM
Linon, with respect, affection, & admiration et cetera, et cetera - we are merely the peanut gallery in this regard - & if I'm correct in thinking that you want to do a post London analysis, using your method then there are a few constraints ...

firstly, videos from same vantage point don't exist, in part because not all combinations competed at same events as part of selection process.

however, take a peek at the wonderful FEI database & find all the test results for any/all relevant combinations that were under consideration :)

https://data.fei.org/Result/CompetitionSearch.aspx

similar to you, I like to start with facts/numbers etc and this datbase is a fantastic resource - enjoy :)

We are the peanut gallery, but I wonder, if the statisticians can do it, how far off the judges marks we would be.

I'm being a total goose (well, no more than usual... :)), but sometimes, the average of a large peanut gallery (in anything) actually judge things as well as the experts. Not because they break it down into tiny details, give marks and then put it back together again, but because they go by overall impression.

A good example is how many people can spot a happy horse. Adelinde Cornelison did better than most, but would we consider Parzival a happy camper??

:)

thejoth
01-10-12, 07:19 PM
ah anky rode at the limbits and didn't exactly set the world on fire...

it may be true that the world of elite sport snobbery exists and dressage is probably right up there (mrs romney's horse anyone). but eggzackly what was she thinking?! she looks like a fool and didn't do aust. any favours in the process.

the rich and powerful are always playing 'look at the hand'.

the whole thing smacks of another agenda. a distraction, but from what?

Centaur
01-10-12, 07:24 PM
You do have a point DBD...BUT:
1. Mary is planting the blame squarely at Hayley's feet and
2. Did you see her test?

Djangoandjacana
01-10-12, 07:33 PM
Devilbydesign I think it is not so much ( and I say this in partial ignorance, not having ready the article, only what's been posted here) that it is the snobbery of not letting in the colonials but that other than the furore that was happening domestically we would have had a much better result and leap a few ( a lot) places in the standings. The results at the Olympics were not dissimilar to those in the lead up events on which selection was made. So the conclusion is the carryon here made no difference to the marks we would have got anyway.

Linon
01-10-12, 07:47 PM
With regards to the statistical predictions...

I have not had time to read it all yet, but I found this on Eurodressage - an article by the statistician who predicted the outcome of the dressage...

The people doing the review should read it... and weep.

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2012/01/27/david-stickland-dressage-analytics-olympic-year

:)

Littlelamb
01-10-12, 08:29 PM
And Australia wasn't even mentioned. Very interesting article. Thank you for the link.

devilbydesign
01-10-12, 09:35 PM
The way I read it Mary was saying that Hayley was complaining about someone getting in who didn't satisfy the selection criteria, and that she was pointing out that for the previous Olympics Hayley didn't meet the criteria but no one appealed her.

yodles
02-10-12, 12:11 PM
I would love to be a fly on the wall down at Drysdale. I am sure the 3200 people who have now read about Mary outburst on Cyberhorse and the pretty negative responses was not the desired outcome. Mary has a wonderful ability to block out the reasons why people have problems with her, her memory is as short as her eyesight.

Do you think she has forgotten her article "Mary Hanna 'Stranded' in France".....I haven't.....perhaps there should be more reference to that now Berni??? Seriously, what potential olympic athlete in any other sport would get away with such blatant abuse of the Olympic host country, or in fact such detrimental comments in regard to welfare recipients.

Refer to "The Public Arena", October/November 2011 issue. Personally, I was amazed and somewhat disappointed that there was not a public outcry when this article was initially published. I, for one, do not believe anyone capable of writing that article should have been allowed to represent our sport. One could only hope the general media do not latch on to the socio-economic discrimination contained therein.

munchkins
02-10-12, 12:25 PM
This is how Horse & Hound reported the issue:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/olympics2012/7630/310216.html

which Equestrian Life also duly reported:

http://www.equestrianlife.com.au/articles/Mary-Hanna-faces-Olympic-visa-problems

seems that Mary was the only rider who wished to be quoted in some detail.

yodles
02-10-12, 12:52 PM
"Mary Hanna 'Stranded' In France".....it would be really helpful if someone could post a link to the whole article, but for those of you who haven't yet read it, or don't recall it, here are a couple of excerpts....

"However this being my fourth trip back, I must have in some way looked like a dodgy terrorist, or perhaps a penniless Aussie looking to retire in the UK, and live on welfare!!! (Seriously...who would want to retire in a country with weather and food that bad!!!! Anyway.. do I LOOK like I need welfare???)"

but wait......there's more.....

"Strangely the UK have spent large amounts of money and time making training facilities available to Athletes who wish to come and train before the Olympics. One has to wonder, who is going to be using these facilities, as the Border control seem to be determined to keep as many athletes out as possible. I have heard that other athletes from a variety of sports are having the same problem. Had we been warned of these issues, it would have been easier to deal with, but to be just refused entry after only a couple of months in the country, and then face the prospect of being separated from your trainers and horses, makes for a disastrous situation. It's all very Faulty Towers...the UK would love to run the Olympics, but please don't send any Athletes!,,,, we can't tell the difference between the Athletes, and the terrorists, or the welfare bludgers!!!!

Centaur
02-10-12, 01:35 PM
What a snob!

Actually it's a shame she didn't spend more time in England. She might have learned some good sportmanship from the horsey set over there. Most of them have more class in their little finger. Money doesn't buy it.

Noah'sArk
02-10-12, 01:42 PM
Omg - criticising the weather - go ahead - but the FOOD????!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like The Ego Has Landed...lol

Linon
02-10-12, 02:19 PM
This woman is an absolute parody.

All I can think of is Barry Humphries taking the absolute piss out of her.

Actually - I wonder if Shaun McCallef would be interested in this!!!


:)

Fyadara
02-10-12, 03:24 PM
As if you can get the dole as a foreigner just by entering the country. They are more likely to try to keep people out who will earn money without the appropriate visa. Athletes entering the country several months before the Olympics may need some money to support themselves. To be fair to Mary, not only doesn't she look like a dole bludger, she doesn't look like she would need to work at all to support herself.

Centaur
02-10-12, 05:57 PM
How can one 'not look like you would need to work at all to support oneself'?

Noah'sArk
02-10-12, 06:10 PM
How can one 'not look like you would need to work at all to support oneself'?

Agreed. Scary thought.

Sounds like me up at the stables on a Sunday morning.

Brings a whole new meaning to the word unkempt ;))

kait21
02-10-12, 06:25 PM
When you enter the UK, if you're staying a while they often request to see your bank accounts. One look at Mary's and I think they would have known she didn't need to work to support herself. I haven't been able to bring myself to read the article although I have the mag. She is just acting like a sore loser and a snob instead of taking responsibility for her poor placing and being humble. Although I thought the comment on Britain in her blog was funny, it's hardly paradise there, the weather is foul and the food not much better! And she certainly wouldn't look as though she needs welfare, and I doubt she would qualify for it.

chipsy1
02-10-12, 06:59 PM
Well, the UK might not have the best weather (although riding in the snow is lots of fun) or the best food but there is access to great instructors from all over Europe, a lot of horses to choose from on the market and if you hop onto a plane for one hour you can get authentic French, Spanish, Portuguese or whatever food. And itís sunny there too. But this is a bit OT ;)
If the information on dressagensw is correct, then she is competing at the Oz dressage champs at SIEC. Be interesting to see her.