PDA

View Full Version : Hendra Question



belambi
04-11-12, 10:19 AM
Could someone in the know..(ie.REALLY in the know) Please explain this statement

""The state's chief veterinary officer, Rick Symons, says the new Hendra vaccine is useful but not 100 per cent effective""

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-04/horses-to-be-tested-after-hendra-outbreak/4351806

munchkins
04-11-12, 10:35 AM
it has been stated repeatedly about this and other vaccines, that no vaccine in 100% effective - simply a reality and nothing to do with this particular vaccination, so it is probably safe to think that his comment is reflecting that scientific reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

Vaccines do not guarantee complete protection from a disease.[2] Sometimes, this is because the host's immune system simply does not respond adequately or at all. This may be due to a lowered immunity in general (diabetes, steroid use, HIV infection, age) or because the host's immune system does not have a B cell capable of generating antibodies to that antigen.

Even if the host develops antibodies, the human immune system is not perfect and in any case the immune system might still not be able to defeat the infection immediately. In this case, the infection will be less severe and heal faster.

Gary Hartigan
04-11-12, 11:50 AM
Could someone in the know..(ie.REALLY in the know) Please explain this statement

""The state's chief veterinary officer, Rick Symons, says the new Hendra vaccine is useful but not 100 per cent effective""

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-04/horses-to-be-tested-after-hendra-outbreak/4351806

Maybe Rick Symons needs to consult with EA CEO, Grant Baldock as he has indicated in a Press Release (how embarrassing) that has gone 'world-wide' that the new vaccine will hopefuly eradicate - yes, you read that right - eradicate the Virus!!

Both of them surely can't be correct!!

fire_ball
04-11-12, 11:58 AM
What, are they vaccinating flying foxes and mice now? Good luck with that scheme!

Linon
04-11-12, 01:23 PM
Maybe Rick Symons needs to consult with EA CEO, Grant Baldock as he has indicated in a Press Release (how embarrassing) that has gone 'world-wide' that the new vaccine will hopefuly eradicate - yes, you read that right - eradicate the Virus!!

Both of them surely can't be correct!!

Oh FFS. I sincerely hope this is not true.

If so, it's another reason why he should be dumped.

:(

Gary Hartigan
04-11-12, 01:28 PM
Oh FFS. I sincerely hope this is not true.

If so, it's another reason why he should be dumped.

:(

Sadly Linon, it is true. Nothing more than an opportunistic attempt at 'grandstanding'.

Clearly the man does not have the faintest idea!!

belambi
04-11-12, 04:10 PM
Exactly my point.!

munchkins
04-11-12, 04:23 PM
Exactly my point.!

What point is that? You made no reference to Grant Baldock's erroneous statement in your opening post.

belambi
05-11-12, 07:03 AM
No.. Your second post.

belambi
05-11-12, 01:15 PM
Another question.

Will the blood test required for export, be able to differentiate between hendra virus, and a hendra vaccine?

Linon
05-11-12, 01:51 PM
Another question.

Will the blood test required for export, be able to differentiate between hendra virus, and a hendra vaccine?

It depend on the type of test. If it tests for virus directly, then yes it should (e.g. polymerase chain reaction type tests). If it is an indirect test (such as testing for antibody to the virus), then it depend on how much cross reactivity there is between the antibodies generated by the virus, and antibodies generated by the vaccine.

Of the top of my head, if I was a govt department and I was organising testing (such as for diagnosis or for allowing horses to go overseas), I would be sorting this one out very quickly. I'd probably use a PCR type test, which would be more expensive, but also more accurate.

:)

belambi
05-11-12, 02:22 PM
Thanks for the reply. I know that one of our appys last year had to be tested when he went overseas. I think it may depend on the country.

belambi
05-11-12, 02:24 PM
one more question.. Can a horse be infected with the virus but be non symptomatic due to having been vaccinated ? (as in a shedder as in EI?)

woki
05-11-12, 02:28 PM
one more question.. Can a horse be infected with the virus but be non symptomatic due to having been vaccinated ? (as in a shedder as in EI?)

A vaccinated horse will not shed virus after contracting a HEV infection - that why this vaccine is so important to save horse and human lives.

Infected horse will be "asymptomatic" but safe(r) to handle

belambi
05-11-12, 03:06 PM
A vaccinated horse will not shed virus after contracting a HEV infection - that why this vaccine is so important to save horse and human lives.

Infected horse will be "asymptomatic" but safe(r) to handle

Excellent.. Many Thanks.

belambi
21-11-12, 03:04 PM
I have another question.

Is it total coincidence that all fatalities from Hendra have been male?.. and recoveries have been female?

teetee
21-11-12, 03:07 PM
Too hard to tell I'd say, not enough data to make a conclusion either way.

Linon
21-11-12, 05:27 PM
I have another question.

Is it total coincidence that all fatalities from Hendra have been male?.. and recoveries have been female?

I think that there was one female fatality - a recently graduated vet that did an autopsy without any personal protective equipment - not even gloves. One thing is for certain, the numbers of people infected who then died is so low it would be very difficult to draw any conclusion about that. However I am chasing up a few things regarding the animals that infected the humans. The original mare (who was pregnant) when she gave Vic Rail and the handler the virus was pregnant at the time. Pregnancy does odd things to a response to bugs (and it varies from bug to bug). For example, in the case of smallpox, the fatality rate amongst pregnant women was over 99%, but only about 30% of the rest of the population.

One thing though - the people who were infected were very up close and personal. In the case of Vic Rail, he was trying to examine the mares mouth and got a range of scratches etc on his arms.

:)

belambi
21-11-12, 05:30 PM
I think that there was one female fatality -

:)

Thanks. Was there a female fatality? I did not know that...

Linon
21-11-12, 06:04 PM
Hi Munckins - could you clear your inbox?

:)

Stirling
22-11-12, 01:11 AM
Thanks. Was there a female fatality? I did not know that...


NO, there was not a female fatality.... at least not one that has been recorded. The case Linon mentioned above was NOT fatal, she suffered a mild flu-like illness and recovered. Certainly alive and well when I spoke with her. The recorded human cases - four male fatal cases, two female and one male non-fatal.

It amazes me the vets pushing the vaccine yet not willing or able to answer some of the other questions.


Could someone in the know..(ie.REALLY in the know) Please explain this statement

""The state's chief veterinary officer, Rick Symons, says the new Hendra vaccine is useful but not 100 per cent effective""

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-04/horses-to-be-tested-after-hendra-outbreak/4351806

NO vaccine, animal or human is ever 100 % effective, and the trials on this one have been so limited it would be sheer negligence not put this warning squarely in front of people....


Another question.

Will the blood test required for export, be able to differentiate between hendra virus, and a hendra vaccine?

Hendra vaccination and Export

Horses scheduled for export should NOT be vaccinated. If an owner considers that a horse may be an export candidate in the medium term future, the onus is on the owner to investigate the requirements of the destination country and to meet those requirements.

The Commonwealth Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry (DAFF) has started discussions with Australia's major trading partners to notify them that a Hendra virus vaccine, Equivac HeV has been made available to horse owners under special permit.

Several of our trading partners, including Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia and China currently require that horses intended for export to their country are Hendra virus antibody negative. Horses vaccinated with Equivac HeV will be antibody positive by serum neutralisation tests (SNT) and therefore may not be eligible for export. In the future it is anticipated that these countries will require horses to be vaccinated prior to export, however, until this happens a test to differentiate infected and vaccinated animals (DIVA test) is needed.

Researchers at the Australian Animal Health Laboratory (AAHL) and NSW DPI have developed a DIVA test that detects antibody to the N and P proteins of the virus, and are currently in the process of validating and accrediting this assay. Currently, sufficient reagents are available to do a few hundred tests, but this test is not currently accepted by the above countries of destination.

munchkins
22-11-12, 09:44 AM
Hi Munckins - could you clear your inbox?

:)

and now it is your turn to clear your inbox - LOL :)

Linon
22-11-12, 12:26 PM
and now it is your turn to clear your inbox - LOL :)

Tis done!

:)

Linon
22-11-12, 12:30 PM
Hendra vaccination and Export

Researchers at the Australian Animal Health Laboratory (AAHL) and NSW DPI have developed a DIVA test that detects antibody to the N and P proteins of the virus, and are currently in the process of validating and accrediting this assay. Currently, sufficient reagents are available to do a few hundred tests, but this test is not currently accepted by the above countries of destination.[/QUOTE]

Why will they not use a test such as PCR to test directly for viral products?

:)

Stirling
22-11-12, 05:44 PM
Hendra vaccination and Export

Researchers at the Australian Animal Health Laboratory (AAHL) and NSW DPI have developed a DIVA test that detects antibody to the N and P proteins of the virus, and are currently in the process of validating and accrediting this assay. Currently, sufficient reagents are available to do a few hundred tests, but this test is not currently accepted by the above countries of destination.

Why will they not use a test such as PCR to test directly for viral products?

:)[/QUOTE]

Because that would only detect viral product not antibodies. The countries that have taken Hendra more serious than ours for many years, have for a long time required proof that the horses entering their shores don't carry antibodies.

The vaccine is using a synthetic duplicate of the G protein found in the virus. The current (or previous) testing for antibodies would show a vaccinated horse as positive to antibodies (assuming the vaccine worked in that horse). Hence the development of a test to detect the other proteins N & P to distinguish how the animal obtained immunity, natural infection or vaccination.

sprintman
22-11-12, 09:18 PM
Vaccinated ours a week or so back. Better safe than sorry!

Red Dun
22-11-12, 10:51 PM
sprintman, you are getting the booster in 3 weeks from initial injection? Oh, and well done :)

sprintman
22-11-12, 10:58 PM
ys by our vet. I hop
sprintman, you are getting the booster in 3 weeks from initial injection? Oh, and well done :)

Yes, told 21 days by our awesome vet.

mindari
23-11-12, 01:29 PM
Maybe Rick Symons needs to consult with EA CEO, Grant Baldock as he has indicated in a Press Release (how embarrassing) that has gone 'world-wide' that the new vaccine will hopefuly eradicate - yes, you read that right - eradicate the Virus!!

Both of them surely can't be correct!!

considering Grant Baldock in another life was on national television stating the conditions of the surf was safe he already has a proven track record of unreality..............

so hes moved from surf lifesaving to equines? at least they dont tend to drown if/when he messes up.

Red Dun
23-11-12, 02:58 PM
Yes, told 21 days by our awesome vet.

Yes, that's right sprintman. Mine have two more weeks until their second as well.

saddles
23-11-12, 06:43 PM
in actual fact - even though the vaccine may not be 100% effective (no vaccine ever is!!) - even then it may wipe the disease out. Very regularly done in fact. It's simply a matter of decreasing the pool of 'disease' significantly. it all a matter of numbers - once you get any 'disease' below critical numbers a disease will expire. A little i guess like thectitical low numbers when we talk about various species that are about to become extinct.

Anyway - if you want to learn more then why not go to Webinarvet Australia - they're having a webinar nect tuesday at 7:30 sydney time. if you email them you might still be able to get on??! i'll certainly be there

munchkins
23-11-12, 06:58 PM
It's simply a matter of decreasing the pool of 'disease' significantly. it all a matter of numbers - once you get any 'disease' below critical numbers a disease will expire. A little i guess like thectitical low numbers when we talk about various species that are about to become extinct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases

So far, two diseases have been successfully eradicated—one specifically affecting humans (smallpox), and one affecting a wide range of ruminants (rinderpest).

might take a little while to eradicate Hendra, and given that it has some 'close relatives' that may even increase the challenge.

and below are the details of the webinar that saddles referred to - a notice was posted on EQ Life the other day, omitting the date, it's the 27th Nov as there is only one more Tuesday left in the month :)

Reserve your Webinar seat now at:
https://www4.gotomeeting.com/register/801853031

Here is your chance to learn all about the deadly and unpredictable Hendra virus and the new vaccine that helps protect your horse against infection, direct from Pfizer’s Technical Services Veterinarian, Dr Richard L’Estrange.

We will discuss the virus, its relationship to bats, the symptoms it causes, plus the new vaccine, including how it works, any likely side-effects and which horses in Australia should be vaccinated.

You can ask questions and get answers ‘direct from the horse’s mouth!!

Don’t miss this unique opportunity to get first-hand information about Hendra virus and the new vaccine!

Date: Tuesday November 2012

Time: 7.30pm - 8.30pm AEDT

After registering you will receive a confirmation email containing information about joining Equine Central's Webinar.

Contact details for Equine Central:

information@equinecentral.com.au

www.equinecentral.com.au

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Equine-Central/284014258383559

mindari
23-11-12, 07:13 PM
in actual fact - even though the vaccine may not be 100% effective (no vaccine ever is!!) - even then it may wipe the disease out. Very regularly done in fact. It's simply a matter of decreasing the pool of 'disease' significantly. it all a matter of numbers - once you get any 'disease' below critical numbers a disease will expire. A little i guess like thectitical low numbers when we talk about various species that are about to become extinct.

Anyway - if you want to learn more then why not go to Webinarvet Australia - they're having a webinar nect tuesday at 7:30 sydney time. if you email them you might still be able to get on??! i'll certainly be there

How is that a chance with Hendra?

its not a disease carried and spread by horses?

It is an endemic diseas of bats.........

the horse is just an occasional victum and even every horse in australia were vaccinated, or even if there were no horses ever, in australia ..

hendra would still be in happy existance just has it always has in bats.

soon as there are any unvaccinated horses around it can shift again from its real carrier. .

to compare Hendra to Small pox or rinderpest is to ignore that the disease was significatly reduced in its "carrier pool"
in the case of small pox, in the human pool. in rindeerpest in the animals carrying and dispersing it.

so unless you reduce it so significantly in the bat population it gets below below "critical numbers"
,its a disease that will not expire
. its always going to be around. unless its the bats that are going to need to be blanket vaccinated.

awetsawdustdemon
23-11-12, 07:29 PM
in actual fact - even though the vaccine may not be 100% effective (no vaccine ever is!!) - even then it may wipe the disease out. Very regularly done in fact. It's simply a matter of decreasing the pool of 'disease' significantly. it all a matter of numbers - once you get any 'disease' below critical numbers a disease will expire. A little i guess like thectitical low numbers when we talk about various species that are about to become extinct.


Yes, but this is a bit different, in that the virus has a reservoir in flying foxes - it's not going to be eradicated no matter how many horses you vaccinate, unless it turns out that the horse is an essential host at some point for the development of the virus (very unlikely). Hendra is here to stay unless we start mass vaccinating flying foxes... or eradicate them (as some would like :rolleyes:)

saddles
24-11-12, 11:11 AM
SARS was wiped out and at this stage the jury is out on eradication – however there is a reasonable possibility.
Answer this – why has the disease suddenly cropped up now when FF have had it for ages!

Anyway hopefully this webinar next Tuesday will answer all the questions relating to Hendra. This is direct from Pfizer’s Technical Services Veterinarian, Dr Richard L’Estrange. WE can't hope for better than being able to ask (type) questions for him to settle, can we?

mindari
24-11-12, 11:19 AM
SARS was wiped out and at this stage the jury is out on eradication – however there is a reasonable possibility.
Answer this – why has the disease suddenly cropped up now when FF have had it for ages!

Anyway hopefully this webinar next Tuesday will answer all the questions relating to Hendra. This is direct from Pfizer’s Technical Services Veterinarian, Dr Richard L’Estrange. WE can't hope for better than being able to ask (type) questions for him to settle, can we?

the only thing thats 'cropped up' is there is now a test for it.

horses have been found dead for decades, now tests are discovering how many DIDNT die of snake bite after all...........kapeesh?

without the test the dogs would still be alive , as would Thomas, and have to wonder how many before them lived to tell the tale because there was no test let alone a name for it. Thats why.


http://www.hendravirus.org/aboutme.htm
"I said good-bye to our little man six weeks later, on the anniversary of Steve Irwin’s death on the 4th of September, as I led him down the hill towards the team of 11 vets, scientific researchers and DPI staff awaiting to euthanase him and perform a full autopsy. They came from as far away as Melbourne. Thomas had tested positive in later tests that showed he had developed antibodies to the virus from which he was never noticeably ill. People still ask me why we made him suffer and fight through an acute illness from which he would only be put down from in the end anyway . . . the answer is simply that he was never sick"

Stirling
24-11-12, 03:49 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases

So far, two diseases have been successfully eradicated—one specifically affecting humans (smallpox), and one affecting a wide range of ruminants (rinderpest).

might take a little while to eradicate Hendra, and given that it has some 'close relatives' that may even increase the challenge.


As awetsawdustdemon has correctly pointed out, Hendra can never be eradicated. The natural host being flying foxes where it has happily existed for a very long time, largely unchanged, and will continue to bob around the millions of bats moving around the country.




Reserve your Webinar seat now at:
https://www4.gotomeeting.com/register/801853031

Here is your chance to learn all about the deadly and unpredictable Hendra virus and the new vaccine that helps protect your horse against infection, direct from Pfizer’s Technical Services Veterinarian, Dr Richard L’Estrange.

We will discuss the virus, its relationship to bats, the symptoms it causes, plus the new vaccine, including how it works, any likely side-effects and which horses in Australia should be vaccinated.

You can ask questions and get answers ‘direct from the horse’s mouth!!

Good luck with that!

I emailed Richard L’Estrange just prior to the vaccine release to ask a few questions, he politely refused to answer them. Given that the questions related mainly to the safety and efficacy trials, which were largely funded by the Government after they went into damage control over Hendra, I would have thought we had a right to know.

If anyone does participate in the Webinar perhaps they could tell them the information on their website has inaccurate information about Hendra virus.

Straight from http://www.health4horses.com.au/Disease-Information/Hendra-virus/

Hendra virus

What is Hendra virus?

Hendra virus is a potentially deadly viral disease that can be spread from horses to humans. There are no known treatments for Hendra virus.
First detected in northern Queensland in 1994, more recently Hendra virus has been reported further south and west of the Great Dividing Range.1-3

Actually it was first detected in a suburb of Brisbane, South East Queensland, later named after that suburb.

Where does Hendra virus come from?

Fruit bats (flying foxes) are the natural hosts of Hendra virus.1

How is Hendra virus spread?

It is thought that Hendra virus is transmitted from fruit bat to horse via feed contaminated with fruit bat urine, faeces or body fluids.4
Hendra virus can be spread from horse to horse and horse to human through close contact with respiratory secretions and/or blood from an infected horse.4

Hendra virus can be spread through ANY secretion, including saliva and urine, how about listing them all...

What are the signs of Hendra virus in horses?


Fever
Nasal discharge
Clumsiness or difficulty walking
Muscle twitching
Increased breathing rate
Lack of appetite
Head tile
Difficulty breathing


If you have observed any of these symptoms or you are concerned about your horse, consult your veterinarian immediately.

The list of known clinical signs observed in confirmed cases is far more extensive than this list. Perhaps they should list them all or at the least make it clear that this list is not exhaustive and to check with the appropriate authority.


SARS was wiped out and at this stage the jury is out on eradication – however there is a reasonable possibility.


OH REALLY? I don’t think so, I think you’ll find given the virus was eventually traced back to bats as well that, like Hendra it will never be eradicated, it will from time to time Spillover from bats to other species.

Centaur
24-11-12, 03:58 PM
Maybe Rick Symons needs to consult with EA CEO, Grant Baldock as he has indicated in a Press Release (how embarrassing) that has gone 'world-wide' that the new vaccine will hopefuly eradicate - yes, you read that right - eradicate the Virus!!

Both of them surely can't be correct!!

WHY is Grant Baldock still with us?????

saddles
25-11-12, 10:22 AM
Back to this webinar, it is my understanding that Pfizer’s Technical Services Veterinarian, Dr Richard L’Estrange, whilst not a media-man WILL be using this to answer questions. It's a free webinar with no special computer equipment needed so well worth the opportunity of attending from the comfort of home & typing in these questions. If he doesn't answer & doesn't make any attempt, well won't that be something to take further?

Let's see what happens at this webinar on Tuesday, maybe he will have answers to these important questions, well that is what's being advertised, so tune in & check it out.

Looking forward to hearing the answers.