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thejoth
16-02-14, 09:43 AM
now monetgo that really wasn't fair.

let us unpack the statement 'to sit quietly and direct proceedings'. to sit quietly is to be in balance and move with the horse. the 'quiet' is not throwing them off balance, it is receiving and directing, it is not passive. 'direct proceedings' clear and consistent aids delivered at the right time so that they actually mean something, give guidance and reward correctness.

you can quote fancy riders till the cows come home, but at the end of the day it is about your relationship with your horse, not theirs and to be fair you did make it sound like an awful lot of hard work.

just because you don't like the way someone delivers a message, doesn't make the message any less valid.

perhaps this topic had a little further to run?

midnightly
16-02-14, 11:27 AM
I think you've hit a brick wall, Joth. Tgh's post was pretty good, IMHO.

cyrus
16-02-14, 12:53 PM
I am still out chasing roos myself :)

Djangoandjacana
16-02-14, 01:08 PM
It depends on your starting point of fitness. You don't need to be fit enough to run a marathon or strong enough to lift enormous weights. You do need to be fit enough to be in control of your own posture so you do not get in the way for the horse by being sloppy and unable to "sit quietly and direct proceedings". Most desk jockeys with one horse to ride do not have the fitness and core strength to do that unless they undertake some other sort of fitness regime.

md
16-02-14, 08:50 PM
see I don't agree with just chasing Roos in the context of the post, rider was having issues in her training with on the forehand, and really if you look at most riders (me included) we all have trouble with getting our horses off the forehand, and chasing roos while beneficial for the mental aspect and yes perhaps will sit neddy on its bum from time to time as will chasing cows, it will not solve the training issue.

I watched a lot of the dressage with Altitude on the net over the last few days and have to say that 80 percent of the horses were on the forehand, including and up to GP, it was described as a loss of balance by the commentators, but really what it amounted to was the horse fell on the forehand.

Often on here dressage training is spouted as being easy and simple, but it isn't, not when you take into consideration the horse, its trainablity and ability, the riders ability and experience, and the availability to good quality instructors, sure it appears simple in text, and it would be good if it was that easy, but as a struggling rider who tries very hard to do the right thing by the horse and keep it simple, it is not.

Getting a horse off the forehand who is naturally built downhill, who is naturally backward thinking is hard, especially when the rider is nervous and wants just an easy going relationship with their horse, what is more frustrating is that people who have issues with their horses are not willing to come clean, but prefer to take the higher ground and make the rest of us feel like idiots for admitting we have an issue.

Training horses is a work in progress for most of us and getting our horses off the forehand and in front of the leg are probably two of the most difficult things.

teegs you asked me to explain are all horses, ie endurance horses, trail riding horses, etc all on the forehand even those walking in their paddocks, well yes I think most of them are, but in the whole scheme of things it doesn't matter, the get from a to b, some horses are naturally more balanced and off the forehand, some are like my bloke who isn't, some endurance horses would be naturally lighter in front from just being forward thinking and others would be on the forehand due to being not so forward thinking or naturally built wrong.

I think it would be nice if we could see that some of us are struggling to get it perfect, we are on a journey and those of you that have perfected your training or riding (or in essence reading ability) could cut us some slack, and be happy that we are prepared to say we have a long way to go, we need help advice and that help advice would be appreciated without the constant holier than thou replies.

We could all learn so much from each other as everyone has a story, if we could all just stop for a moment and remember what it was like to begin, whether it be begin to ride or begin our changes, half pass etc... On the forehand and in front of the leg/aids is a huge problem for the most of the dressage riders in this country.

In the recent THM, Susie Hannovers, talked about our horses not being forward enough, yet what is forward enough, in watching the horses at Orange, some were naturally forward without being rushed, then you got those that had obviously read Susie's recent report in the mag and took it to a whole new level, forward became rushing, yet still wasn't forward enough in the true sense of the word, yes they were faster, but that wasn't the point, I am struggling with that as well, have a naturally backward thinking horse, yet if I ask for more forward, he falls on his forehand and is running, it is a fine balance and one we all work with every day.

tgh05
16-02-14, 09:38 PM
I'm really not an md fan.. but this is a really really good post.. bloody well said ..md..
Too tired grumpy to provide a decent reply tonite… maybe termorrer...

thejoth
16-02-14, 10:31 PM
thanks md for seeing the importance of simple truths.

I don't remember anyone saying it was easy though.

the grumpy one has retired for the night, mercury is retrograde so I don't expect things to change.

just look at that other thread...

FNQ62
17-02-14, 07:55 AM
DnJ I believe rider fitness is all about how many saddle hours the rider puts in, not on how many horses the rider has, or has access to. A good balance of flat and trail is both mentally & physically beneficial to horse and rider, but that is probably another discussion.

Friesian Friend
17-02-14, 08:44 AM
I missed some of the first posting but can tell of my experience.

Gosh with my original 'hellish' riding (my poor horsey) he was on the forehand cause that was how my original riding made him. The first few months were hard bloody work and both he and I were unfit! He liked the forehand cause he could plod and didn't have to do the work, it was all up to me. Thank goodness a brilliant instructor came along, showed me the way and made me feel all the different muscles in my horse's body, so I could sit on him and know what he was doing. It did take some work to get him forward (and yes I can even tell now the rushing as well). Of course now it is becoming the other way around, he goes forward and does the work and I learn to balance, help give the right aides without losing balance and he keeps going forward into the changes I have asked and I keep trying to balance as he moves. So physically yes I need to be fit but more so in keeping my balance and I find riding for me has become more mental. For my boy as he gets fitter it becomes easier for him and more mental for him.
I guess until you feel what is happening it can be a long physical process for the rider and horse then suddenly when you get that light bulb moment of feeling and the more mental aspects are more apparent.
Some instructors are brilliant at explaining and you just gel with them and others no matter how good they are just can't explain things in the right manner for you, doesn't mean they are bad, just not the right one for you and your horse.

Mystery~Bay
17-02-14, 08:47 AM
Most desk jockeys with one horse to ride do not have the fitness and core strength to do that unless they undertake some other sort of fitness regime.

I don't know if I'm a "desk jockey"...I work 3 days a week mostly at a desk, have a small farm and a young family. I only work one horse 5-6 days a week and I'm doing ok. Maybe not by CH purist standards but placing in 2 disciplines and moving through the training scale/grades. I'm not 20 either LOL

Anubis
17-02-14, 08:58 AM
But you are rather remarkable MB

Mystery~Bay
17-02-14, 09:29 AM
But you are rather remarkable MB

PMSL!! Not quite :) yesterday I thought I was just an idiot jumping in 45 degree angle pouring rain. what were the normal people doing on a Sunday afternoon?!

Anubis
17-02-14, 09:45 AM
Well you are an Eventer after all. Would be there in a flash if I wasn't so paranoid about Ralph's legs.

I was sitting inside wishing I could be out riding in the rain

I have a lovely horse and every time we start getting together something happens. I have done ligaments above and below the ankle bone on inside and outside of my left leg.

Hoping my coach will ride him for me while I am on the mend

Cybergirl
17-02-14, 09:56 AM
PMSL!! Not quite :) yesterday I thought I was just an idiot jumping in 45 degree angle pouring rain. what were the normal people doing on a Sunday afternoon?!

Well, we, "the normal people", were out there doing the morning shift for you, and heading home by arvo! ;) It came down pretty heavily just after I arrived so I was sheltering in the car, but it had eased for our SJ rounds luckily. Good to see you, albeit "in passing", lol...

k123
17-02-14, 02:44 PM
I think on the forehand happens for a lot of reasons. In the original post, it may very well have been because the horse was unfit. As noted above, it can be because the horse loses balance, because the horse loses engagement, because the horse loses forward. There's lots of reasons that a horse will fall onto the forehand. Fixing it is hard. Generally I find getting more engagement is the key. I find I get best engagement from halt. Halt trot transition and we are all powerful again and then it is my job to help him maintain that power by keeping him (and me) balanced and keeping the energy.

MD has a good point re the difference between forward and running. When I get my horse really nice and bright (as my instructor likes to put it) he feels so powerful. It feels like a horse does when they're about to ping off somewhere; that contained energy. The trick is trusting him and directing him. This is totally different to running, which he was doing on the weekend. When they run, the power isn't contained. You can feel the difference as there is a lack of strength, comparatively.

that's my totally uneducated take on it anyway :)

Djangoandjacana
17-02-14, 04:23 PM
Absolutely agree FNQ but its just hard to get up sufficient hours on one horse. The only thing that really gets you riding fit is riding BUT if you cannot ride enough to do that there are other ways to increase core strength etc.

MB I was referring to Montego who said she needed to increase her fitness. If you have a reasonable level of fitness then you are not going to have a problem maintaining it.

Mystery~Bay
17-02-14, 06:46 PM
Well, we, "the normal people", were out there doing the morning shift for you, and heading home by arvo! ;) It came down pretty heavily just after I arrived so I was sheltering in the car, but it had eased for our SJ rounds luckily. Good to see you, albeit "in passing", lol...

You're not normal :-p LOL. It's a shame they do the novice dressage in the early AM. Don't fancy waiting around for 4 hours between dressage and jumping.