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View Full Version : Kim Hollingsworth banned from owning horses, ordered to pay $600,000 in court case



doctordarling
04-06-16, 01:54 PM
http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/3945591/kim-banned-from-owning-horses-ordered-to-pay-600k/#slide=2

fYI for those who have been following the now (10?) year old case of cruelty. ddx

acaciaalba
04-06-16, 07:35 PM
Like that nutter broad is going to have $600,000 for court costs ! FFS !! She couldnt afford to feed the horses ! :( She will never have that kind of money in 5 lifetimes !!!!
She will just vanish and surface somewhere else and start hoarding again .
Why on earth cant courts hand down sentences that mean something !!!
Lock her up !!! Or better yet put her in a mental institution .
Banned from owning horses ?? And who is going to keep tabs on her to make sure she doesnt ?????
RSPCA couldnt keep tabs on that a,,,hole in Bulla, Vic, after he previously did the same thing.
So who,s turn is it to watch her then ???
Makes me sick. These people get away with,,,literally,,,murder, and they get some sentence that will never be enforced .

Anubis
06-06-16, 01:28 PM
I know the Magistrate. Knew him as a solicitor and was lucky enough to have him as a mentor for a time. he is an extremely reasonable and sensible man

acaciaalba
06-06-16, 01:47 PM
Yes, OK, fair enough. But, as I said before, how is she going to pay that money ??
And who keeps tabs on her so she cant do it again ??
So exactly how has she been punished ?
And whats to prevent her doing it again ?

Anubis
06-06-16, 02:06 PM
Not sure if she tried to do a s32 (mental health treatment of offences)

Animal hoarding is now a subset of hoarding in the DSM-V

She is high profile and there is intel on her. There will be eyes on her for ever more. the RSPCA will chase that much money. I was talking to in-house counsel in another Wollongong matter (hundreds of cats)

treacle
06-06-16, 02:16 PM
you watch, they will appeal and end up with community service (edit: at worst !)

acaciaalba
06-06-16, 02:18 PM
I just dont understand how she got away so long, even while under investigation she was still collecting more horses.
Anyway I hope you are correct, Anubis, and she pays for what she did.
100s of cats ??? OMG !!!
I am wondering what sort of sentence the creep up this way, that swung the mother cat by the tail up against a shed wall and crippled her, will get .

Anubis
06-06-16, 02:33 PM
Don't know Acacia... each case turns on its own facts. Horrendous act in and of itself. I imagine depending on his history and aggravating/mitigating factors that gaol is the starting point and the argument will be how it is served (in the community or actual gaol)

LisaL
06-06-16, 02:55 PM
The fact is we can't afford to lock everyone up forever, it costs to much financially and the social cost is enormous. I don't think Hollingsworth is the full quid and wonder if she had a horrific childhood. She's made some strange decisions in life, but then you've got to wonder what her life was like to lead to those decisions.

I'm not one for locking everyone up, yes, there are some bad people out there, but large jail populations lead to poorer and more unsafe societies, they don't make things safer. Ideally Hollingsworth would get the support she needs to make better decisions in future, unfortunately in a world that prefers spending on prison cells to spending on mental health services this won't happen.

Bats_79
06-06-16, 03:19 PM
The fact is we can't afford to lock everyone up forever, it costs to much financially and the social cost is enormous. I don't think Hollingsworth is the full quid and wonder if she had a horrific childhood. She's made some strange decisions in life, but then you've got to wonder what her life was like to lead to those decisions.

I'm not one for locking everyone up, yes, there are some bad people out there, but large jail populations lead to poorer and more unsafe societies, they don't make things safer. Ideally Hollingsworth would get the support she needs to make better decisions in future, unfortunately in a world that prefers spending on prison cells to spending on mental health services this won't happen.

Too true LisaL. You only have to look at gaol happy US of A to see that locking people up does nothing for them. Better off spending the same amount of money keeping tabs on them and preventing repeat behaviours.

acaciaalba
06-06-16, 04:27 PM
Too true LisaL. You only have to look at gaol happy US of A to see that locking people up does nothing for them. Better off spending the same amount of money keeping tabs on them and preventing repeat behaviours.

Thats fair enough too,,keeping tabs on them. But who does it , and how many serious offenders are we seeing slip thru the system , more and more often ?? To re-offend . So if the serious ones are getting thru the cracks, ones like her shouldnt find it too hard.
I am more concerned with her slipping thru the cracks and doing the same thing again.
As to others, like the bloke that crippled the cat, I think putting him to work repairing roads , with no pay, would be a better idea than locking him up.
I like Shefiff Joe and his road gang ideas :)

Bohdi
06-06-16, 04:51 PM
The fact is we can't afford to lock everyone up forever, it costs to much financially and the social cost is enormous. I don't think Hollingsworth is the full quid and wonder if she had a horrific childhood. She's made some strange decisions in life, but then you've got to wonder what her life was like to lead to those decisions.

I'm not one for locking everyone up, yes, there are some bad people out there, but large jail populations lead to poorer and more unsafe societies, they don't make things safer. Ideally Hollingsworth would get the support she needs to make better decisions in future, unfortunately in a world that prefers spending on prison cells to spending on mental health services this won't happen.

This is exactly right!
And, Kim Hollingsworth is most definitely an unwell and a damaged human.

Poor horses, however.

acaciaalba
06-06-16, 08:46 PM
Yes, poor horses. Because she is a serious nut case endless animals suffer. Look how long its taken to stop her ! :( She has been known about for a very long time, and all that time she has been collecting more and more horses and starving them , and no one has been able to prevent her doing that !! For mine, thats not right, no matter how you all paint her, and all the rest of it , court, sentence etc.
Its just wrong it ever was allowed to escalate to this, just like those horses at Bulla.

opensky
06-06-16, 10:52 PM
It is so absolutely depressing the ridiculously inconsequential sentences handed out for animal abuse....(at least this woman got fines, but if she is, as it seems, mentally deficient, she will get away with not paying, and how do we know she will ever be under surveillance properly?) Look up the case on SMH earlier this year of the blokes out camping who butchered a koala with a machete and THEN threw it still alive on a fire....minimal consequences. Just Unbelievably horrific. There is no justice for those unable to defend themselves....and the message via inconsequential judgements is that it doesn't matter, which is just so WRONG on any level. It is an indictment on society to just accept these rulings.

acaciaalba
06-06-16, 10:59 PM
It is so absolutely depressing the ridiculously inconsequential sentences handed out for animal abuse....(at least this woman got fines, but if she is, as it seems, mentally deficient, she will get away with not paying, and how do we know she will ever be under surveillance properly?) Look up the case on SMH earlier this year of the blokes out camping who butchered a koala with a machete and THEN threw it still alive on a fire....minimal consequences. Just Unbelievably horrific. There is no justice for those unable to defend themselves....and the message via inconsequential judgements is that it doesn't matter, which is just so WRONG on any level. It is an indictment on society to just accept these rulings.

Thank You, Opensky, for saying it so much better than I could.

mindari
06-06-16, 11:36 PM
It is so absolutely depressing the ridiculously inconsequential sentences handed out for animal abuse....(at least this woman got fines, but if she is, as it seems, mentally deficient, she will get away with not paying, and how do we know she will ever be under surveillance properly?) Look up the case on SMH earlier this year of the blokes out camping who butchered a koala with a machete and THEN threw it still alive on a fire....minimal consequences. Just Unbelievably horrific. There is no justice for those unable to defend themselves....and the message via inconsequential judgements is that it doesn't matter, which is just so WRONG on any level. It is an indictment on society to just accept these rulings.

so true just saw on facebook a pedaphile has just been convicted for abusing three children and he will be serving 6 months and be eligible for parole

treacle
07-06-16, 12:07 AM
I think kim's "mad" - not bad; bad is BBQ'ing a live koala (they got gaol right ?)

If i could ask kim, i'd ask why not just care for a few horses well instead of just caring about horses ?

I'd also like to know why not "save" dogs / cats / chooks / etc in the numbers they have horses ? What, they arn't as important or something ?

moosh
07-06-16, 02:54 PM
She should have been banned for life!!! The nutter will end up with just as many horses squirrelled away somewhere else the second that 2 years is up I bet!!

People who starve and don't care for/feed their horses/dogs/cats etc are just awful, poor defenceless animals can't ring you up and say hey feed me I'm starving, they suffer while owners don't give a crap 😡

doctordarling
08-06-16, 09:51 AM
Anubis' info that animal hoarding is now the DSM 5 (the handbook of disorders psychiatrists use) prompted me to go there. This link is from the 'psychiatrictimes' journal about hoarding and presents an update on the literature. This is from page 3:

Treatment
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________
Many studies of animal hoarding report recidivism rates from 60% to 100%.12 Recidivism in this context refers to the frequency with which people reacquire multiple animals after having animals legally removed. This differs from the concept of relapse, which refers to the return of symptoms after someone has been successfully treated for a disorder. Nothing is known about relapse in animal hoarding, since no studies of treatment outcomes have been done. However, there are some case examples of individuals who have stopped hoarding animals and have been able to keep from reacquiring them.23

As noted earlier, although courts may mandate counseling, no validated therapy for animal-hoarding disorder is available. In addition, most individuals who have been adjudicated for animal hoarding are reluctant to participate in therapy, making this strategy difficult to enforce. Similar to nonvoluntary clients who are prosecuted in housing courts for object hoarding, the most appropriate method for initial engagement of persons with animal-hoarding disorder may be through community task forces composed of a mix of service professionals (housing, police, fire, public health, mental health, legal). Members of such multidisciplinary task forces can work together to engage offenders in identifying goals that matter to them while requiring compliance with nonhoarding behaviors. Of critical importance is determining whether to limit the number of animals or require abstinence (eg, because of overt cruelty rather than neglect).http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/addiction/hoarding-animals-update/page/0/4
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________

So essentially everyone is right. Hoarding serves a lot of needs, and produces feelgood oxycytocin in large amounts. [yes, even though anyone else can see that the animals are starving and sick] That process needs to be dealt with somehow and another means of feeling good found. So yes unless she gets very good psychiatric help she will start hoarding again. ddx

acaciaalba
08-06-16, 10:50 PM
So , under that mental health clause, ^ above posted ^, she can plead to being a nutter and an animal hoarder, and at the end of the day,,,after they go thru all of the above BS,,,and string it out forever in the courts, absolutely sweet FA will happen to her,,,,she doesnt have to take part in any sort of counseling ,,,and doesnt have to be treated for being a hoarder,,,there is no therapy for hoarders,,and its difficult to enforce any thing at all, really ??
Right :(
So, as I ask about 6 posts ago,,,,who keeps tabs on her so she doesnt do it again,,,since she is getting away scott free this time ??
ie,
Just the penalty, "not to own horses for 2 years " ,,,yeah right. Dream on . Big penalty.
And pay $600,000,,which will never happen in this life time or the next. :(
So, please tell me,,,Anubis, Bohdi, Linon, someone ??
What has happened to this nut case,,,,what real penalty has been given to her ,,,where is she ,,,and who stops her doing it again ??? :(
And please dont tell me the RSPCA will ,,,,,they could not organise a piss up in a brewery,,,,,and I used to be an ardent supported of them,,,once,,,,
Which of you have put your hand up to keep tabs on her ?? So she can never do it again ??

Bohdi
09-06-16, 08:41 AM
So , under that mental health clause, ^ above posted ^, she can plead to being a nutter and an animal hoarder, and at the end of the day,,,after they go thru all of the above BS,,,and string it out forever in the courts, absolutely sweet FA will happen to her,,,,she doesnt have to take part in any sort of counseling ,,,and doesnt have to be treated for being a hoarder,,,there is no therapy for hoarders,,and its difficult to enforce any thing at all, really ??
Right :(
So, as I ask about 6 posts ago,,,,who keeps tabs on her so she doesnt do it again,,,since she is getting away scott free this time ??
ie,
Just the penalty, "not to own horses for 2 years " ,,,yeah right. Dream on . Big penalty.
And pay $600,000,,which will never happen in this life time or the next. :(
So, please tell me,,,Anubis, Bohdi, Linon, someone ??
What has happened to this nut case,,,,what real penalty has been given to her ,,,where is she ,,,and who stops her doing it again ??? :(
And please dont tell me the RSPCA will ,,,,,they could not organise a piss up in a brewery,,,,,and I used to be an ardent supported of them,,,once,,,,
Which of you have put your hand up to keep tabs on her ?? So she can never do it again ??

Hi AC
Anubis can attest to this, but the majority of people going through the justice system and the bulk of people who have been imprisoned are repeat and habitual offenders. Their behaviour is engrained and sometimes they are never rehabilitated. So how do we stop people. Some times we can't

$600,000. Is a huge penalty but one Kim will never pay. I am not sure what an appropriate sentence would be. I have had, arms length, dealings with Kim and she is a very unhinged and irrational human being. Rescuing those horses was little to do with caring about them it was the adoration and support she received from her FB and social media buddies. It empowered her. She didn't have the money to actually care for the horses. What more could the courts have done? Fining her $600,000 sounds huge. Preventing her from having horses ever again sounds reasonable. What else is appropriate. And please don't say gaol!!!

Not the appropriate punishment in his case

Anubis
09-06-16, 09:21 AM
Hi AC
Anubis can attest to this, but the majority of people going through the justice system and the bulk of people who have been imprisoned are repeat and habitual offenders. Their behaviour is engrained and sometimes they are never rehabilitated. So how do we stop people. Some times we can't

$600,000. Is a huge penalty but one Kim will never pay. I am not sure what an appropriate sentence would be. I have had, arms length, dealings with Kim and she is a very unhinged and irrational human being. Rescuing those horses was little to do with caring about them it was the adoration and support she received from her FB and social media buddies. It empowered her. She didn't have the money to actually care for the horses. What more could the courts have done? Fining her $600,000 sounds huge. Preventing her from having horses ever again sounds reasonable. What else is appropriate. And please don't say gaol!!!

Not the appropriate punishment in his case

Bodhi is completely correct.
The accused doesn't get to decide she can call upon mental health issues known as a "Section 32". The raises it, an onus is put on her to establish it. Then the system deals with it.

(as an aside that is a two limbed test....The first the accused must raise the issue and have appropriate reports from a psychiatrist or forensic psychologist linking the offending behaviour to the condition and the second is that the court of first instance accepts it. You would be surprised how often that doesn't happen. Neither shrinks nor judicial offers came down in the last shower. They know when things are legit or so egregious that the Mental Health legislation is inapproprite vehicle to deal with a matter)

She didn't raise it. The Magistrate had regard to the circumstances and also the DSM5. Gaol is not going to "fix" her psychological issues. The system is so very overburdened as it is. A watching brief is really the most realistic approach.

She is very different from her days as a hooker and police recruit. She really isn't all there now.

People equate Justice with Revenge. A reasonable result given the system and it's limitations does not meet people's requirement for revenge.
This is where we get everything from outrage to vicious, derogatory stalking behaviour. Not saying you are my friend.

treacle
09-06-16, 12:23 PM
she really isn't all there now

.... they look very haggard - is their affect noticeably reduced ? i guess that's what happens when you have fought and ruminated for such a long time..... i wonder how will the idea of being subject to a continued "watching brief" affect their mental health ?

Anubis
09-06-16, 12:54 PM
Very much so Frex. Very flat affect. it is a shame but you would know better than I do how ongoing stress impacts on people. I only have my own experiences and no formal training...I always liked the idea of being a forensic psychologist. Too many years study to follow that interest now. Have other study plans

"Watching brief" is an informal term. My words only.

If it is formalised in terms of bonds oddly it can save people. In can be things like the Court keeping people engaged with mental health professionals. Although punitive in nature, the system can also be use help as well at times. People see that less often and many don't feel helped.

treacle
09-06-16, 01:23 PM
Anubis, you have something, i feel, that's equally as valuable as formal training: personal experience

dead set - you're an amazing person to be who you are after what you've been through

I've been thinking.. and i know this is going to sound batshit insane to some: but could the answer be to give kim a career working for the rspca in some capacity ?

Anubis
09-06-16, 01:46 PM
Sounds very "Catch me if you can"
I like the idea. It Could work but high stakes strategy for the RSPCA if it goes shitsideup. Conventional thinking says it is likely to.
Organisations like that and indeed governments are not generally progressive in their thinking.

I think if she had worked with them earlier (something that can be impossible for people who are ill) it would not have got to the stage it did.

Thank you angel...you are too kind.

treacle
09-06-16, 02:05 PM
excellent movie... "i'm gonna get it all back" ;)

.... i guess my thinking is along the lines of "to catch a crook send a crook" ?

... you'd never initially place them in a position that had a great deal of trust or power involved - that would only be earned via a period of protracted good conduct ? I have a feeling a person like Kim would tend to tow the line because they do seem to want to be an agent of "good" ?

... i don't think i'm too kind - however i do think i state the obvious ;)

acaciaalba
09-06-16, 04:44 PM
I just cant get my head around the whole thing. I dont want "revenge " , and I suppose gaol would be a waste of time, with her, but she must have some sort of punishment for what she,s done, surely ? It just seems the whole long drawn out expensive procedure was a total waste of time, as she really isnt even getting a slap on the bum !!!
They have taken the horses away and said "naughty girl, dont do it again for 2 years " ! That to me is laughable .
I feel strongly there must be some form of punishment for animal cruelty of all kinds and in all cases.
What sort of message does it send to others when they see these creatures that have done terrible things to animals walk away pretty well untouched ?
Even kids get punished for doing the wrong thing !
My cat gets a smack if he does wrong !!
But I cant see anything much has happened to her. We all know she will never ever pay the fine. And 2 years down the track, if not before, it will start all over again ??

Anubis
09-06-16, 05:46 PM
You see my beautiful friend you want "Justice" and by saying you "can't see anything much has happened to her" means that you think it should. Most people think that way. It is not a bad thing to think that way. It usually arises when people do not quite get what the occasionally arcane legal system metes out.

Lawyers think differently. They strip our humanity from us at the door as the price of admission ;)

Gods know I have my share of vicious stalkers wishing me ill.

What many people envisage as Justice is really State sanctioned revenge. It is why the purposes of sentencing included punishment and that it is seen to be done, general and specific deterrence and rehabilitation if possible.

It doesn't say whether the bonds were s9 or s12

Biiiig difference. One is simple good behaviour and the latter is gaol, served in the community.
Both might or might not be superised
Both might or might not have conditions...such as attending upon mental health practitioners; taking meds....anything required by the Court.

In all honesty that is the best possible outcome for her, the community and animals.
Locking her up for a period of time is just that. She will not necessarily get the help she needs and it is more likely it will happen again.

A suspended gaol term is viewed as a wrist slap by the community. It is actually a deep and onerous burden. Any screwups that bring you before a court require you to be gaoled unless the fresh matter is trivial and unrelated. Scary stuff...doing the same thing over would not be considered trivial

Bohdi
09-06-16, 06:33 PM
What many people envisage as Justice is really State sanctioned revenge. I


I have always argued; the justice system is built to hand out metered justice. Not revengeful, hysteria driven justice, but reasonable punishment based upon the objective and subjective circumstances of the matter. The courts don't always get it right, but they generally do.

I always remind myself; if it were my son or daughter , standing before the court, I would hope for fairness and reasonable justice to be afforded to them. Most of us would expect that. We can't have it both ways

tgh05
09-06-16, 06:48 PM
Circumstances tend to defeat fair justice , however the term , fair justice , is moot.
Justice tends to prioritise the care and preservation of humans way above the same criteria for animals.

I had an really interesting chat about revenge the other day , with someone who is quietly planning the deed.
A very calm , intelligent , street smart and organised avenger, who will probably succeed in exactly what he/she sets out to do.
In this case the "humanity" in the justice system will be used as a tool to mitigate the punishment for the completed revenge.

Anubis
09-06-16, 06:49 PM
Exactly so Bohdi.
Exactly so.

Anubis
09-06-16, 07:20 PM
Interesting Teegs
I hope your friend finds peace in thinking it through rather than following through.

Justice is in the eye of the beholder.
Lex Talionis does not apply but many see the need for vigorous doing...sort of thing that leads to politicians meddling and one punch legislation.

tgh05
09-06-16, 07:34 PM
Interesting Teegs
I hope your friend finds peace in thinking it through rather than following through.

He was just someone who came and went in my day.
Of course he is quite sure the revenge is justified… a common trait?
It was just a moment in time , I don't want or need to know more.


Justice is in the eye of the beholder.
Lex Talionis does not apply but many see the need for vigorous doing...sort of thing that leads to politicians meddling and one punch legislation.

Media finds mileage in spinning the justice system as "unjust" .
Todays world seems to find guilt a lifetime affliction.
It's all a bit like those noisy opera's from the 1800's created for the entertainment of the multitudes.
IMnsHO , these days the multitudes receive far more consideration than their applied intellect deserves.

Bohdi
09-06-16, 09:55 PM
Interesting Teegs
I hope your friend finds peace in thinking it through rather than following through.

Anubis; One of the smartest people on Cyberhorse!

Anubis
09-06-16, 10:07 PM
Interesting Teegs
I hope your friend finds peace in thinking it through rather than following through.


He was just someone who came and went in my day.
Of course he is quite sure the revenge is justified… a common trait?
It was just a moment in time , I don't want or need to know more.

Yes, very common.
Wanting some sort of redress is normal. When it turns into a mob mentality it becomes disquieting.
Safest sometimes to keep your own counsel


Justice is in the eye of the beholder.
Lex Talionis does not apply but many see the need for vigorous doing...sort of thing that leads to politicians meddling and one punch legislation.

Media finds mileage in spinning the justice system as "unjust" .
Todays world seems to find guilt a lifetime affliction.
It's all a bit like those noisy opera's from the 1800's created for the entertainment of the multitudes.
IMnsHO , these days the multitudes receive far more consideration than their applied intellect deserves.

Yes. Finger pointing and hand wringing with exaggerated expressions like the silent films. Some do it to distract attention from their own black hearts and deeds. Others do it out of ignorance and others yet to avoid scrutiny.

To some extent we have become a selfish coalition without compassion rather than a society. Happy little narcissists and sociopaths who judge and cause pain because it serves their wants and needs.

I like to believe people are square with the house after being through the system. That said, there are some for whom rehabilitation does not work.

"IMnsHO , these days the multitudes receive far more consideration than their applied intellect deserves"... ain't that the truth

treacle
10-06-16, 01:49 AM
.... if you spend enough time thinking it through you can eventually trivialize the matter ?

.... following through means the matter will always be an open sore ?

"IMnsHO , these days the multitudes receive far more consideration than their applied intellect deserves"

.... tugs, i bet if you ran australia, you'd have the voting population perform an IQ test and only those with an IQ over 110 would be counted ;)

Anubis
10-06-16, 09:02 AM
Not so sure Frex...my take is that Teegs is frustrated with mob mentality that feeds on itself. I could be wrong

tgh05
10-06-16, 09:49 AM
There is a lot to be said for a benevolent dictatorship.

Bohdi
10-06-16, 12:24 PM
There is a lot to be said for a benevolent dictatorship.

Oh no, I am not really comfortable with this thought. What if the leader has warped ideas, and his views are subjective.
How can you provide a broad approach to the community when our community is so diverse.

Having said all this, I do think you speak in jest :)

treacle
10-06-16, 12:40 PM
A lot bad to be said for a benevolent dictatorship i think is what was implied ....

Singapore - it's clean, it's safe, but most people who grow up there turn into robots ?

tgh05
10-06-16, 01:41 PM
r you going to the Singapore garden show next month frecks ?

A constructive argument could be mounted for the positives as well as the negatives of a conceptual bd.

Anubis
10-06-16, 03:04 PM
I think people turn even a democratically elected government into a "benevolent dictatorship" through apathy.

Very few are willing to get involved other than being forced to vote. Relatively few want to take the hard decisions or take responsibility. Instead they are happy to wring hands and moan about whomever is in Government at the time.

Bats_79
10-06-16, 03:38 PM
I think people turn even a democratically elected government into a "benevolent dictatorship" through apathy.

Very few are willing to get involved other than being forced to vote. Relatively few want to take the hard decisions or take responsibility. Instead they are happy to wring hands and moan about whomever is in Government at the time.


Aint that the truth.

treacle
11-06-16, 12:36 AM
- remember that time kev gave us all $900 ? those were the days ...

why tugs - want to come ? ;)

tgh05
11-06-16, 10:12 AM
with you ? ..pass….. I'm not smart enough... :-)

I have never made it to Chelsea , so might slip up to the Singapore version for a quick look..

treacle
11-06-16, 01:16 PM
only trying to be friendly tugs... sheesh : /

tgh05
11-06-16, 01:43 PM
's ok… sensitive is as sensitive does...I'm good for lunch if u are going… :-)

acaciaalba
11-06-16, 10:10 PM
Never been to Chelsea Flower Show ?? :(
What world are you living in ?? :)

I would gladly take responsibility for pulling the leaver , if it sent a few of the really bad jail birds to the other side.

Bohdi
12-06-16, 09:46 AM
I would gladly take responsibility for pulling the leaver , if it sent a few of the really bad jail birds to the other side.

I hear certain people say this; but could you REALLY?

"Killing" someone in the name of justice is the ultimate revenge

tgh05
12-06-16, 10:43 AM
and the problem with chopping off digits is that it's hard to sew them back later on when the real culprit appears...

sprintman
12-06-16, 12:58 PM
There is a lot to be said for a benevolent dictatorship.

Agree. I was based in Singapore in '80, very impressive

Anubis
12-06-16, 01:22 PM
I hear certain people say this; but could you REALLY?

"Killing" someone in the name of justice is the ultimate revenge

I agree with Bohdi.

The history of the death penalty was revenge.

Those who take lives also tend pay an ugly, lifelong price.

tgh05
12-06-16, 01:51 PM
"Justice" is the lofty arbiter of the difference between punishment and revenge.
One could/might argue that the terms are a moveable feast

Anubis
12-06-16, 02:41 PM
I don't know that it is even that Teegs.

I think that is the contiuum that most have it.

For me it is a best fit outcome that gives the best result for the Victim and Community (who is also the victim) and is least likely to result in recidivism. I consider rehabilitation potentially a just outcome. It is why I am open to things like circle sentencing and mental health applications etc

I think it is perfectly normal to want revenge but not necessarily to follow through....

Cybergirl
12-06-16, 06:22 PM
I'm curious - what is likely to happen to Kim Hollingsworth really, though? She won't be able to pay the $600K, so what then? Does she just declare herself bankrupt and get out of it? Will she have to serve gaol time or community service instead?

acaciaalba
13-06-16, 01:36 PM
I'm curious - what is likely to happen to Kim Hollingsworth really, though? She won't be able to pay the $600K, so what then? Does she just declare herself bankrupt and get out of it? Will she have to serve gaol time or community service instead?

Yes, what happens now, when we all know she can never pay ?

Anubis
13-06-16, 01:41 PM
My lovely AA, she wasn't fined $600K she got good behaviour bonds after a lengthy hearing

The money was the breakdown of RSPCA legal fees and cost of care. Up to them to claim that by civil means.

acaciaalba
13-06-16, 03:37 PM
So what,,, exactly,,,,did she get in way of fines/bonds/sentences,,,whatever ? After all that time and money and sick starving horses,,,whats happens to her ?? What do those good behaviour bonds mean, and how long do they last for ?
Break it down in simple terms for me, Anubis, please ?
Does anything at all happen to her, other than being told she cant own horses for 2 years ?

Anubis
13-06-16, 05:18 PM
I don't know the nature of the bonds. Will see if I can find out. Not all bonds are made equal.

Some are simple good behaviour without conditions while others are serving a gaol term but at large, in the community. They might or might not be supervised by Community Corrections (the PC name for Probation & Parole). Bonds and suspended sentences seem a light option to the those who don't know the system but they are onerous and can result in full time gaol if an order of the Court is thwarted.

Why is it so important that something "happen" to her?

What do you want to happen? She has become an unlovely person and it is perhaps easy to dislike but must something happen?


There are people on this forum who have flogged their horses leaving stripes and breaking a whip. I have seen one pull a horse over backwards in anger... I have seen another beat her horse so badly at a float he broke away and ran onto a road. Another threatens to hurt other people's horses. These people hold themselves out as beyond reproach and attack others...Is it any better or worse? It just is... You never hear everything that happens in a defended hearing and she self-represented which is always a mistake. She is lucky the prosecutor had a certain view re the hoarding.

The Hollingsworth matter is simply highly public. Gaol is not going to make her better or recidivism less likely. The Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act requires that the Court consider non-custodial options first. It is an error of law that would comfortably ground an appeal if it did not happen. The system is overburdened.



What has "happened" to her is that she did the wrong thing and has been publicly vilified, shamed, ridiculed. She is a social leper. That costs order is no small thing. RSPCA costs are always huge in legal matters and they can and will pursue.

She also has mental health issues and is arguably in need of assistance rather than gaol.

The legal system has dealt with the matter in the way the judicial officer deemed most appropriate given the punitive measures available to him and the facts of the case. He will have compared this case with other comparable cases and decided where it fits on the range of seriousness. If it is above the mid range he starts considering custodial options

Personally I think she should have run a s32 application.

If the prosecution feels that there is an egregious falling short they can appeal...they have not.

tgh05
13-06-16, 06:53 PM
Perhaps the issue is that , to some , Justice does not appear to have been done.

I'm on the fence personally , but upon donning my animal welfare hat …….(plonk) …. I opine that there needs to be a more public Punishment in cases like this.
Six hundred grand would have saved a lot of helpless cats and dogs .
There seems to be little deterrent here for others , and far too much weight on the "welfare of the human" side of the scales .

Anubis
13-06-16, 08:09 PM
Completely valid point of view Teegs.

General and specific deterrence are an aim of sentencing. As is denunciation of the conduct, justice done and seen to be done...and also... rehabilitation.

Where there is some sort of mental issue afood the case of "Muldrock" comes into play. It means that an individual is not necessarily the right vehicle to send the message of deterrence. That is the significance of the DSMV. it is not going to happen in every case.

Perhaps, in cases such as this there should be a requirement that judicial reasons for decisions are published. Most give ex-tempore reasons but they are not published at Local Court Level. They are at higher levels.

Bats_79
13-06-16, 08:39 PM
But isn't the issue with KH that she was hoarding (to make herself feel good due to the "adulation" of the "you should save a horse" crowd) and that the action of hoarding caused horses to be neglected?

Then punishing her won't act as a deterrent against others because no one who hoards to the point of neglect actually believes that is what they are doing. They can't see that in their actions therefore the punishment of others who are doing it is meaningless. We have all these reality TV shows about hoarders but do they cause any true hoarder to change their actions?

Isn't it the same as narcissists or other types of abusers - they don't believe that what they are doing is the "same" as the crimes that other people are convicted of?

Anubis
13-06-16, 08:54 PM
Narcissism and Sociopathy are different beasts to the Hoarding.

I have no knowledge of her psychological profile. I can only speak to process and what is public record.

Narcissists need to be seen as either the victim or the hero. The Sociopath wants to win. They enjoy feeding off the pain of others and deploy their flying monkeys to do damage on their behalf. Sociopaths are narcissitic but not all narcissists are sociopaths

They are both self-serving, empathy free animals. They are charismatic and selfdriven.

Each case turns on its own facts. Each person is different with different pathology and reasons. There is no one size fits all. It is the sometimes frustrating conundrum that is the legal system.

Linon
13-06-16, 09:06 PM
There is a lot to be said for a benevolent dictatorship.

In which case you might be interested in this:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/the-best-bosses-are-enlightened-dictators-20160609-gpezzc.html

:)

acaciaalba
13-06-16, 10:31 PM
Sorry, but I just think there has to be a consequence for your actions.
If you do a good deed, the consequence is it helped another person.
If you are, say, a WIRES person, the consequence is injured animals are helped.
If you are a naughty kid, the consequence is your parents punish you.
If you go out and starve horses, the consequence is they suffer die and you walk ????
No deterrent there that I can see.
To be honest I dont know what I want to happen, but there has to be something more than this softly softly approach.
Once, when anyone did the wrong thing they got punished. Now they get a pat on the head and sent home.
That didnt work with my parents, and a bit of punishment didnt hurt me and my mates. In fact it kept us on the straight and narrow. Why is so wrong now for some of us to expect people to be punished for doing the wrong thing ? All of a sudden it gets turned around and those of us who think that way are bad and nasty people .

midnightly
13-06-16, 11:40 PM
It isn't "revenge" at all. We aren't vengeful, we just sincerely believe that steps must be put in place so that KH never ever NEVER EVER has the opportunity to even think about acquiring another living creature. And that applies to every hoarder or whatever they're called because they will (and do) come back and do it all over again.

It's too late for punishment but there must be a very strong deterrent and whether or not that deterrent impacts others isn't relevant.

Bats_79
14-06-16, 12:12 AM
Sorry, but I just think there has to be a consequence for your actions.

Who said that there should be no consequence? I don't think anyone, anywhere, ever has said that there should be no consequence.

I SAID that other people won't be deterred by the example of her punishment.

Other people said that she won't be "rehabilitated" by punishment and could simply say that she is being victimised.

Still other people have questioned how you effectively punish someone with a mental health issue - the word being "effectively" so that it makes the impact you want to. Otherwise we bring back the road gang and hard labour.

They are just questions by people who are interested in looking from a different perspective.

acaciaalba
14-06-16, 12:15 AM
I give up.
This is just going round and round in circles with no clear outcome that I can see.

Anubis
14-06-16, 08:22 AM
http://i.imgur.com/HSVDk9V.jpg

Sometimes that is the problem with the limits of the system lovely AA.

The Magistrate in this instance is what lawyers call a "heavy hitter" meaning he will not hesitate to gaol or accumulate sentences if he feels it appropriate. He is also very learned and practical.

Magistrates in the Local Court are very limited as to penalty options and time frames. This is the reality of politics and media interfering with judicial discretion.

Bonds can extend beyond two years but most are up to that length.

I would not want to come before a Court, especially this Magistrate with an offence of the same type. It is sad, there are no winners only the hope that the right help will prevent it happening again.

Anubis
14-06-16, 10:12 AM
It isn't "revenge" at all. We aren't vengeful, we just sincerely believe that steps must be put in place so that KH never ever NEVER EVER has the opportunity to even think about acquiring another living creature. And that applies to every hoarder or whatever they're called because they will (and do) come back and do it all over again.

It's too late for punishment but there must be a very strong deterrent and whether or not that deterrent impacts others isn't relevant.

Not suggesting that you are vengeful dearest Midnight.

Merely that many view "Justice" as something happening to someone. It is in a sense calling for the State to exact revenge and that in the absence of it, Justice has somehow not occured.

There again is the question... "Is she the right vehicle to send a message?

On the face of it yes BUT none of us know exactly what the Magistrate had in front of him. We don't know the type of bonds she is on. A harsh bond would send a message, unfortunately the media simply says "bond". Yay them...it clarifies nothing. This whole debate becomes a game of "What if"

After chatting with the prosecutor I suspect the Court formed the view that she was not the right vehicle for sending a message of deterrence. The Court certainly would have had regard to the extra-curial punishment with the vilification.

acaciaalba
14-06-16, 11:43 AM
I thought you would be interested in this story I found on MSN: Father and his sons find slaughtered brumbies in Victoria’s high country http://a.msn.com/01/en-au/AAgWnHx?ocid=se

So I suppose IF they ever find who did this , they will just get a slap on the hand, because they are only brumbies, so who cares ?? :(

QHwishiwas
23-06-16, 11:26 PM
I find this post very pot-kettle-black in some ways.

One does not need to be classed as an animal hoarder to have more animals than they can or want to properly care for. To some people their animals are discarded status symbols and someone doing that with even just a few animals makes me just as sick - perhaps even sicker - than the likes of KH.

People in general should take more responsibility instead of adopting the Ye olde ostrich approach which sickens me.

Boils down to the fact that if you can't properly look after or don't want your animals, then do something about it. Get out from behind your computer or wherever you go and go look after those animals.

Yes some can plead mental health, but let me assure you that's not always the case.

k123
24-06-16, 07:13 AM
What do you mean the right vehicle for sending a message Anubis? That implies the law is not applied equally to all offenders.

If she has a mental issue then incarceration in a mental health facility to treat the issue would be a good idea. She's not going to get treatment herself. Yes, article earlier suggested they don't have success treating hoarders, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try.

By handing a fine and leaving her free to do it again, really there is no deterrent for anyone, and isn't that the point of sentencing? It is to be a deterrent to others who may otherwise do the same thing.

Anubis
24-06-16, 08:07 AM
She didn't seek a s32

No K123 it is not applied equally in all cases. In Punishing someone in possession of all their faculties it is assumed they understood what they did. Therefore it is appropriate that the purposes of sentencing are met.

Where they are not able to understand the need to send that message to the community and sometimes to punish is ... Very occasionally...lessened.

The test is hard and has two limbs
1. Is there a mental condition that can be linked to the offending behaviour - there need to be detailed reports.

2. Is that behaviour so egregious that the court has no option to deal with it under the criminal law

For example Assault

One offender A has a few beers and a couple joints and bounces his wife's head off a cupboard and fracturing her cheek.

One offender B has PTSD or Schizophrenia and has a episode and does the same.

Both are bad

A is more morally culpable than B. System would punish A but at least in the first few times would try to feed B into help.

We no longer lock people away. Involuntary admissions really only happen where there is immediate risk of harm to self or others ... S33

tgh05
24-06-16, 10:49 AM
Nice to see an insider humanising the hitherto inscrutable, "Imperious Justice machine"…… well dun.. :-)

There appears to have been a steady politicisation of the magistracy , resulting in the the press having a field day with some of the more socially tolerant decisions….

Anubis
24-06-16, 09:58 PM
You are so very right Teegs.

Knee jerk legislation is terrifying.

The one punch scenarios are nothing less than horrific for all involved, especially the family of the deceased. That said it could be dealt under the criminal law most effectively as an "aggravating" feature.

There are processes in place to deal. Not always understandable to the layperson but they are there.

Imagine a terrible mistake. A drunken punch resulting in an untimely death

Lives are at stake. More than the deceased. However horrific the circs. The constant crystal ball gazing exercise is horrific.

The prosecution has the burden of proving all.

The defence...well...that is an ugly exercise of running to instructions v reality checking v law v ability v understanding of law v facility of tongue.

acaciaalba
24-06-16, 11:37 PM
You are so very right Teegs.

Knee jerk legislation is terrifying.

The one punch scenarios are nothing less than horrific for all involved, especially the family of the deceased. That said it could be dealt under the criminal law most effectively as an "aggravating" feature.

There are processes in place to deal. Not always understandable to the layperson but they are there.

Imagine a terrible mistake. A drunken punch resulting in an untimely death

Lives are at stake. More than the deceased. However horrific the circs. The constant crystal ball gazing exercise is horrific.

The prosecution has the burden of proving all.

The defence...well...that is an ugly exercise of running to instructions v reality checking v law v ability v understanding of law v facility of tongue.

you are so right, Anubis. most lay people would not have a clue about any of that ^^ you are saying.
arnt the one punch scenes almost always drunks who throw the punch that wrecks another person,s life, , and then they say they were under the influence of alcohol, so cant be responsible for their actions ?
a drunken punch is no excuse for a lenient sentence. if you cant hold your grog and behave in a decent manner, dont drink, and if you do drink, and you kill or maim someone, you deserve all you get.
which lately doesnt seem to be a whole lot.
i was taught when i was growing up if you do the wrong thing, you get punished. and that punishment serves 3 purposes.
it deprives you of something , be it liberty, or a treat, or just something. ( as parents deprive kids of their internet access for example ).
it makes you think twice before you do it again. ( once bitten twice shy, after facing my Mum having done the wrong thing ).
its an example to others so they think long and hard before they do it. ( my mates never followed me into sin, as the local Copper put the fear of God into all of us , before he took us home to face our parents ).
you betcha lay persons dont get it. not just me.

Bohdi
25-06-16, 09:30 AM
a drunken punch is no excuse for a lenient sentence.




you betcha lay persons dont get it. not just me.

I always ask lay people to consider this; their own brother is before the court facing a manslaughter charge after he punched a person, and that person died. You would want justice to carefully consider the sentence your brother should receive, whereas the deceased's family would most likely want "revenge" against your brother.

opensky
25-06-16, 10:17 AM
Drunken punch perpetrators should get the book thrown at them, they not only take the life of another innocent person they destroy the families lives too, you bet they would want revenge. These horrific crimes deserve severe consequences. And they just keep happening...

midnightly
25-06-16, 10:38 AM
^^^
What Opensky said.

Bookra
25-06-16, 10:48 AM
So what if your brother is having a few drinks with his girlfriend, when out of the blue some drunk punches him. He then punches the drunk back, but unfortunately when he hits the ground he hits his head on the pavement and dies. Your brother was defending himself but was drunk when he threw the punch. Is he a drunken punch perpetrator? Will the family of the deceased be any less keen for revenge simply because their son threw the first punch? Life is not black and white. Should the outcome be different if your brother was over .05 or under? Should it be different if the drunk had hit the girlfriend instead of your brother?

opensky
25-06-16, 11:15 AM
No, he is not a drunken punch perpetrator, he did not start the incident. Death was accidental. Vastly different and clearly black and white to me!

acaciaalba
25-06-16, 01:59 PM
as I see it, blokes getting into a biffo is quite different from the "one punch" violence thats happening now.
blokes have always had fights.
but these that just walk up to a stranger and drop them , or lash out at a bouncer when told to behave , and then plead they couldnt help themselves because they were on booze or drugs is happening too often now.

Anubis
25-06-16, 02:00 PM
But it is not Opensky. He has chosen to commit an act that resulted in a death. It grounds a murder charge that would probably plead down to a manslaughter but under the ridiculous legislation he would get hammered.

Bohdi is very, very right.

Sometimes alcohol tolerance is changed by health, medication...any number of things. People don't always realise. An adverse reaction can occur. There is no best fit.

A judicial officer has more in front of them than the general public. We are just guessing. We don't see what gets handed up. The reasons for the decision are not published.

treacle
29-06-16, 10:43 AM
"There are people on this forum who have flogged their horses leaving stripes and breaking a whip. I have seen one pull a horse over backwards in anger... I have seen another beat her horse so badly at a float he broke away and ran onto a road. Another threatens to hurt other people's horses. These people hold themselves out as beyond reproach and attack others"

what ? trash ? in my backyard ? i swear, if i ever find out who you are ......

"So what if your brother is having a few drinks with his girlfriend, when out of the blue some drunk punches him."

..... you "take it like a man" and then take your squeeze to the royal automobile club for dinner and make a pact to never visit a pub / "club" ever again ?

Linon
29-06-16, 12:22 PM
But it is not Opensky. He has chosen to commit an act that resulted in a death. It grounds a murder charge that would probably plead down to a manslaughter but under the ridiculous legislation he would get hammered.

Bohdi is very, very right.

Sometimes alcohol tolerance is changed by health, medication...any number of things. People don't always realise. An adverse reaction can occur. There is no best fit.

A judicial officer has more in front of them than the general public. We are just guessing. We don't see what gets handed up. The reasons for the decision are not published.

Being pissed, stoned, or screwed up on heroin, dope or meth is no excuse.

I don't care how drunk you were when you hit someone, or whether you had a reaction to the booze because you were on antibiotics (there are these things called contraindications on the packet that tell you not to drink etc), but being drug-affected is no excuse. This whole idea of "poor darling, he was drunk when he king hit and killed a bloke, he needs to be given special consideration" is just bollocks.

Everyone in Australia understands that such things affect your behaviour and judgement.

My cousin in a copper in Qld. The stuff he has seen perpetrated by self-entitled dickheads (and that's just the girls) is unbelievable.

:(

Linon
29-06-16, 12:28 PM
I always ask lay people to consider this; their own brother is before the court facing a manslaughter charge after he punched a person, and that person died. You would want justice to carefully consider the sentence your brother should receive, whereas the deceased's family would most likely want "revenge" against your brother.

Yes, I would want them to carefully consider the sentence. But I would expect (and hope) the sentence would include incarceration, treatment for alcohol/drug abuse, retraining/education if required, absolute prostration in front of the family of the deceased, and a hell of a lot of community work for a very long time.

And then when he finally gets out of gaol, I'll give him a bollocking as well.

:(

treacle
29-06-16, 12:30 PM
... is there something amiss in the first place in a person who chooses to use an inebriating substance ?

Personally i'd seek audience with the family of the deceased in order to ascertain if they understood that revenge doesn't fix anything: when you kill someone for whatever reason you never get over it - isn't that a life sentence within itself ?

Linon
29-06-16, 12:33 PM
... is there something amiss in the first place in a person who chooses to use an inebriating substance ?

Yes.

Australian culture values getting totally drunk. We don't place a value on having a nice glass of wine and leaving it at that.

With regards to more addictive drugs (e.g. ice), we don't value education/prevention/societal support. And we are too late to help with addictions.

And our track record on mental health is appalling.

:(

treacle
29-06-16, 12:36 PM
"We don't place a value on having a nice glass of wine and leaving it at that"

.... but seriously, what culture does ?

I think that humans and substance use are synonymous: humanity has been using (and abusing) since the dawn of time ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mQQkLRQy2o

Why do people use ? lack of healthy coping tools when faced with adversities ? shyness ? emotional pain (psychache?) ? physical pain ? loneliness ? peer pressure ? hopelessness ? alienation ? a means to ameliorate the symptoms of untreated psychiatric conditions ? a way to deal with the side effects of taking psychotropic / mood altering medication ?

acaciaalba
12-07-16, 10:28 AM
So now the lunatic is appealing the court,s decision. After reading the short report I cant work out if she is appealing her sentence, or that she has been told to re home the horses. Or both. :)
Either way she is now going to waste more of the court,s time, and who knows how much money, on something that should have been cut and dried years ago.
How long must this farce go on ?

Anubis
12-07-16, 03:51 PM
She has two matters in Disso at Downing Centre on 26/7

Looks a severity appeal.

acaciaalba
12-07-16, 06:05 PM
Severity ?? You are kidding me !
If most of us here ( barring you and Bohdi and maybe 1 or 2 others :) ) had our way she would be chucked out in the poverty paddocks with those poor bloody skinny horses of hers . :(

Anubis
12-07-16, 06:18 PM
I don't know for certain if it is. List just says District Court Appeal x 2
Seems procedurally logical

acaciaalba
12-07-16, 08:55 PM
Now what the hell does procedurally logical mean ???? For us nincompoops. :)
Is that just another way of letting her off the hook ??? And going lightly lightly on her ??
Surely, Anubis, you must see that those of us who dont have any legal idea, think this is all a crock of shit ?

tgh05
12-07-16, 09:05 PM
Pause , think , type… AA.. :-)
Just imagine yourself in the same situation,
The legal system , for all it's faults tries very hard to be fair… ( aaaaaaaannnd….in the process sometimes wastes a lot of time and money… )

acaciaalba
12-07-16, 10:02 PM
Sorry !!! BUT. I would never be in the situation of having heapies of starving horses. And not feeding them. And seeing them skin and bone. And not throwing food out for them. And then making feeble excuses as to why the horses are starving. So I can in no way imagine myself in that situation.
And then trying to paint myself as a victim.
When its the starving horses who are the victims.
No, I wont pause, think, type,,,,
No way would I get in the situation where I couldnt feed my animals.
If i did, I would ask for help. i would never let my animals become skin and bone , and then say I love them.
Thats a sick sort of love .
The legal system , when it comes to animal abuse,,,,STINKS !!!

midnightly
12-07-16, 10:14 PM
Bravo!!

People might start to talk

Bats_79
12-07-16, 10:21 PM
Now what the hell does procedurally logical mean ???? For us nincompoops. :)
Is that just another way of letting her off the hook ??? And going lightly lightly on her ??
Surely, Anubis, you must see that those of us who dont have any legal idea, think this is all a crock of shit ?

No. It's a legal process by which the innocent are given a modicum of safety and which the guilty can utilise. I would rather it remained there and some who were innocent or genuinely deserving of some leniency were able to access a chance for a better result than that it wasn't there so as to prevent the guilty from maybe taking advantage.

It might not be a perfect system but it is way better than some.

acaciaalba
12-07-16, 10:29 PM
Well good luck to the innocent.
How about the guilty ???
Whats your take on them, Bats ??
Do you like what KH has done with her starving horses ??
And whats your take on her appeal thats going to take up more court time and tax payer dollars , when she is just a dead shit who has starved horses for years and tried to make out she is a martyr.

Anubis
13-07-16, 12:04 AM
See now I just did a search on her name for upcoming court dates.

There was a result in the Local Court and she appears to be appealing to the District Court.

I have no idea if it is severity or all grounds. I have no idea if it is even a result of the most recent court outcomes. The timings would make it seem so.

I have no information on the matter or vested interest in the outcome

The Court, if it chooses to hear her will do so afresh. it is always open to the District court to increase the penalty although to do so they must give a "Parker Direction"; a warning of intention that gives the appellant the opportunity to withdraw the appeal.

Yes it is costly to the community in time and money. That is the tragedy that is the self rep.

The RSPCA will have counsel. The costs will increase.

Her dogged perseverance adds to my thought that there is some sort of illness or disorder in play.

AA, you seem to suggest I feel the opinion of those without legal experience is somehow lesser. Not the case at all.

Yes, I think the dogged need by some for something to happen to her without being willing to entertain other possibilities or indeed that the legal system is right is deeply flawed if understandable.

I believe the system will get it right.

acaciaalba
13-07-16, 12:19 AM
I dont. Sorry. I dont.

mindari
13-07-16, 12:30 AM
Anubis, a chap who had to try and deal with her (a neighbor) strongly believes she has a severe disorder, he considered she needs help but doesn't think it would look like she is going to get that anytime soon

Anubis
13-07-16, 01:01 AM
And you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. I might disagree with it but I will defend your right to hold it.

Which brings us back to what do you want to happen to her?

If you have no faith in legal minds infinitely more learned than mine and the precedent of centuries of law...what will make it right?

Of course it was wrong. Of course the time and expense generated by a self rep is onerous. She has a Constitutional right to be heard... As does each person here.

Trust me, some of you already have personally benefited from your right to be heard and more will in the future.

She has a profile most do not.

The system acknowledged her wrong but what I see is a witch hunt that wishes her some sort of nonspecific persecution and harm based on no actual or legal knowledge other than what is reported in the media and the certainty that she is a deadshit.

That last might well be the case. I certainly don't know. She certainly seems unlovely.

If she is mentally ill, she should be controlled not punished. If she has some cluster b disorder swinging she will neither see nor acknowledge the wrong and should be controlled rather than punished. Gaol will not feel like punishment nor be appropriate in these cases. It will not stop recidivism

The one thing I do know is that handwringing and venom are not productive nor are lynch mobs with torches. in the absence of rational debate it seems awful.

She is playing in some serious traffic in this jurisdiction. Penalties increase. Be interesting to see how it pans out. Might go up for a looksee

Bohdi
13-07-16, 01:02 AM
No. It's a legal process by which the innocent are given a modicum of safety and which the guilty can utilise. I would rather it remained there and some who were innocent or genuinely deserving of some leniency were able to access a chance for a better result than that it wasn't there so as to prevent the guilty from maybe taking advantage.

It might not be a perfect system but it is way better than some.

BRAVO;

AA you write like a bit of a wild thing

Anubis
13-07-16, 01:06 AM
Yes, Bravo Bats

acaciaalba
13-07-16, 01:11 AM
BRAVO;

AA you write like a bit of a wild thing

Do I ?? LOL. Well I am just saying what many others think.
Are you cheering for Bats ??
LOL !!
Go check her history,

Bats_79
13-07-16, 10:23 AM
Do I ?? LOL. Well I am just saying what many others think.
Are you cheering for Bats ??
LOL !!
Go check her history,

AA - it's people like yourself (not saying that you would deliberately do something against the law) that our legal system is so great for. People are passionate about something and may get in over their heads, people who go too far in defense of loved ones or their own protection, and people who genuinely don't have the mental ability to fully understand the consequences of their actions or the true meaning of the laws. These people do out number the real bad guys and they do deserve some way for people to step in and reassess the legal situation on their behalf. That's what "Appealing" does. That's why everyone has the right to one and why we have legal aid.

Hasn't the prosecution in South Africa just used the Appeals process to get Oscar P (sorry lazy with the spelling) a harsher sentence or did they call for a retrial and get it?

Anyway, I would think that for every "guilty" person who gets a slightly lighter sentence via appeal there would be many who genuinely deserve it. I'm pretty sure that on a world wide scale our legal system is pretty highly rated - most problems seem to be as a result of the people who are using it / manipulating it rather than the system itself.

I'm not suggesting that Kim H deserves a lighter sentence by any means but the right to appeal is inherent just as is the right to passionately oppose it.

tgh05
13-07-16, 10:32 AM
Goodness me AA, you are immersed and perhaps complicit in the mass wastage of the tb industry , and yet petulant and querulous about other animal welfare matters….. feeling a little guilty are we ??

My earlier comments about the checks and balances in the legal industry, and the walk in her shoes allusion , was not proposing that you "be" the offender under discussion.
It was a reminder that completed justice is very final and life changing and that the system allows the subject to fight and continue to fight for their right to be heard.
Summary justice , aka off with her finger , is a popular cry of the loud crowd , however the system we live with attempts to function humanely and fairly.
Perhaps one day you will find yourself in the pillory and gain a sense of mob persecution and overt punishment.

There will always be Kim Hollingsworth's, fractured and fragile , leaning on animals for personal support and sometimes harming them in the process.
A well ordered society must have oversight and justice for an orderly and fair existence of it's members .
Animal welfare does not enjoy the highest iteration of the former functions and and it is in this area that government and the folks who vote for them could do more.

... Taff
13-07-16, 12:01 PM
I don't think you write like a wild thing, AA, but I think you write (sometimes) like a person who has never felt certain things. Depression, for example. And maybe you have never been in certain situations that sometimes people find themselves in.

It sounds more and more like KH has a mental problem. In fact it sounded that way from the beginning.

Thank your lucky stars that your brain is fit and healthy.

Anubis
13-07-16, 12:25 PM
The function of the Court in this jurisdiction is punitive and always will be.

In deciding what is appropriate there are numerous considerations with which I have dealt previously.

I often chat to the psych nurse attached to the local court about customise and the jumping off point is a brief assessment of whether someone is "mad or bad" or where they fit on that continuum.

It would be a very sad society where we had our right of hearing removed and draconian punishment regardless of the objective seriousness.

It is all interconnected. Sentencing is not as easy or as arbitrary as people think

The "problem" (and benefit) with lawyers is they tend to look at the big picture without heat or outrage. Nothing as useless to a situation as lawyers squabbling like the are married to each other. Doesn't mean we don't think or feel. The impassivity and otherness of thought drives normal people crackers

treacle
13-07-16, 12:50 PM
Anubis, that's interesting - since when were psych nurses attached to court houses ?

"Thank your lucky stars that your brain is fit and healthy"

perhaps right now... but down the road apiece - who knows ? - and that goes for all of us ?

midnightly
13-07-16, 01:04 PM
Please tell me ... those who know much better than I ... no matter how dark your place, how bad your suffering may be ... would you let your animals starve?

Anubis
13-07-16, 01:16 PM
Not all courts have them Frex but they are a gift from the gods. Especially when I have someone going off in the cells or I am contemplating a s33 (immediate placement in psych facility)

Dearest Midnight, I certainly don't know more...nobody is condoning her actions.

They are not right. Is it badness or madness.

Identifying the cause of the not right and identifying the right intervention can prevent further occurrences of the bad.

Xx

Bats_79
13-07-16, 01:47 PM
Please tell me ... those who know much better than I ... no matter how dark your place, how bad your suffering may be ... would you let your animals starve?

I don't think anyone is arguing about whether or not Kim H DESERVES a reduced sentence. We are discussing that her right to appeal is totally legal and that the "right" to appeal is one of the things that makes our legal system a better and safer one.

treacle
13-07-16, 02:09 PM
yes, crisis negotiation is certainly a skill innit ? ...... i wonder if it pays very well ?

acaciaalba
13-07-16, 02:10 PM
I don't think you write like a wild thing, AA, but I think you write (sometimes) like a person who has never felt certain things. Depression, for example. And maybe you have never been in certain situations that sometimes people find themselves in.

It sounds more and more like KH has a mental problem. In fact it sounded that way from the beginning.

Thank your lucky stars that your brain is fit and healthy.

I do, Taff.
But dont be fooled into thinking I have never had problems and dramas in my life.
But no matter how bad it got my animals were always looked after properly.

Anubis
13-07-16, 02:20 PM
yes, crisis negotiation is certainly a skill innit ? ...... i wonder if it pays very well ?

Not so much crisis negotiation as someone qualified to report to the court about combat indicators of mental illness, disordered personalities and who can liaise with treating professionals for community treatment plans etc.

Court places weight on the nurse's report.
We practitioners can all see "not right" and with enough experience can have insight but we are not qualified in that way.

When the nurse says "not mad but bad" is when it gets hard or when the same person has multiple ss32 but does not appear to be addressing their woes...which can in and of itself be a sign of a greater ill

midnightly
13-07-16, 04:03 PM
What makes me wonder ... if you are mad do you still do bad things, or must you be inherently bad in the first place.

There is the feeling here that one or two are actually trying to make excuses for KH's behaviour because she is mad.

I have no argument with the right to appeal.

Anubis
13-07-16, 04:40 PM
No excuses.

No idea whether she is mad or bad. Have seen no evidence of madness or even if it has been raised.

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

A consideration of the court would have been the deliberateness of her actions which would go to objective seriousness

Bats_79
13-07-16, 07:12 PM
There is a huge difference between "excusing" something and "explaining" it.

There is no excuse for Kim H's actions. Imho there might have been in the very first instance when ignorance is somewhat of an excuse - but this went on for years and years and there were many ways she could have extracted herself from the situation. She went way beyond being "excused" and the court hasn't accepted her excuses.

There may be an "explanation" for her behaviour and understanding that might lead to ways of treating or preventing repeat behaviour. But I have seen no one on this forum ask for her to be excused. Some, possibly those with a bizarre fascination of the horrible (do you miss Wire In The Blood too?), are interested in understanding hoarding - specially animal hoarding - and how it might be treated and managed.

... Taff
13-07-16, 07:24 PM
Yes, I am definitely not excusing KH's behaviour. But I don't like to see AA upset over KH's behaviour.

Anubis
13-07-16, 07:24 PM
I loved wire in the blood

mindari
13-07-16, 09:10 PM
There is a huge difference between "excusing" something and "explaining" it.

There is no excuse for Kim H's actions. Imho there might have been in the very first instance when ignorance is somewhat of an excuse - but this went on for years and years and there were many ways she could have extracted herself from the situation. She went way beyond being "excused" and the court hasn't accepted her excuses.

There may be an "explanation" for her behaviour and understanding that might lead to ways of treating or preventing repeat behaviour. But I have seen no one on this forum ask for her to be excused. Some, possibly those with a bizarre fascination of the horrible (do you miss Wire In The Blood too?), are interested in understanding hoarding - specially animal hoarding - and how it might be treated and managed.

something has needed to be done for decades and the courts are not going to achieve a thing towards help or treat mental illness

mindari
13-07-16, 09:38 PM
What makes me wonder ... if you are mad do you still do bad things, or must you be inherently bad in the first place.

There is the feeling here that one or two are actually trying to make excuses for KH's behaviour because she is mad.

I have no argument with the right to appeal.

I wonder why has this nightmare been allowed to drag on for decades yet nothing done? its the same scene really as happened in victoria, complaints were lodged for years. not days, not weeks. years. yet nothing was done, none sized and fed just left to die and be photographed for everyone to see and cry over.

yet in this same period Ruth Downeys cattle were shot, the murry grey herd in victoria were shot. but the hollingworth case? hands were tied seemed to be the ongoing excuse. pity someone untied the ropes so they could kill all those cattle though?

midnightly
13-07-16, 09:48 PM
I'm afraid Wire in the Blood was too gruesome for me.

I see no one asking for her to be excused, but I do see a sympathy bordering on excusing.

I don't think (but I'm a muggins) we could ever be capable of "explaining" KH's behaviour, her motives, what the hell she thought she was doing. Why should we waste time trying? She did it - she starved those in her care, those who needed her for their being, locked in her paddocks with no feed. No excuses. Reasons why? We'll never really know. We can't understand her thinking - how could we.

She just did it.

mindari
13-07-16, 09:53 PM
I'm afraid Wire in the Blood was too gruesome for me.

I see no one asking for her to be excused, but I do see a sympathy bordering on excusing.

I don't think (but I'm a muggins) we could ever be capable of "explaining" KH's behaviour, her motives, what the hell she thought she was doing. Why should we waste time trying? She did it - she starved those in her care, those who needed her for their being, locked in her paddocks with no feed. No excuses. Reasons why? We'll never really know. We can't understand her thinking - how could we.

She just did it.

Yes! she did... BUT WHY WEREN'T THEY SEIZED?

She was negligent, they should have been seized, then and there, why left for years before finally anything was done? dont fall for the line they didnt have the power yet. Marion Alcorn had ten of her horses taken within hours of the first visit. No warning, no do this within 7 days or they will be seized. they had troughs full of feed and fresh water only days from being trucked from a drought area, now stading knee deep in fresh grass and being hand fed as well. No tied hands over taking Marions Horses. why? not Kim's??????????


there is blame aplenty available for allocation elsewhere too (http://www.markmaldridge.com/THE-RSPCA-EXPOSED.html)



read how fast these people lost animals, Why not Kim's far worse off horses?

http://www.markmaldridge.com/THE-RSPCA-EXPOSED.html




(http://www.markmaldridge.com/THE-RSPCA-EXPOSED.html)

midnightly
13-07-16, 09:58 PM
In reply to Mindari's post ...

Once upon a time, many years ago, during a drought and when cattle prices fell through the floor, a cattle dealer rented the paddocks opposite my house. He would take the beautiful Hereford cows to market and leave their baby calves to die. He had starving animals locked in the stockyards (which were exactly opposite my driveway). He had some beautiful, well-bred bulls locked in a paddock with no feed in it and we had to watch them go down and die. We (neighbours and me) called the RSPCA countless times. Nothing. We had to listen to some truck driver trying to get a bull on its feet, beating it, swearing, but the sounds of the stick were awful. My husband went across the road and hopefully broke his leg. That was good. :)

One day a truck arrived, dumped a few beautiful Herefords into the yards, then the driver hauled out a cow that couldn't get up .. just pulled her off the truck with a rope around her neck and let her fall on the ground in the apron of the yards. RSPCA did FA.

But there are other channels/avenues/whatevers. Local press, local TV station, police, vets ... they all came. Cow (with broken pelvis) was put down, the dealer was run off the place. The press worked for us, so did the police. I don't know why the RSPCA is still in existence.

As an aside, I rescued as many calves as I could - I had to wait until they were half dead before I could catch them, and then it was expensive medicine but a lot of them did live. The local ranger brought a couple in to my place.

It was pretty horrible living there during that time.

mindari
13-07-16, 10:21 PM
In the hollingsworth case plenty of press didn't seem to have any effect other than increased sales of the stories, increased public indignation but zero reaction from the carers of all creatures great and small?

Bats_79
13-07-16, 10:33 PM
Sorry, I'm not getting into why the RSPCA have done what they've done, or failed to do. I have no idea why and I never will.

I can only talk about the people on this thread and what they are saying.

I really don't understand why anyone would think there was sympathy, excuses or any other thing for KH. It's as though if you aren't screaming hysterically you're assumed to be supporting her. That's rubbish. All I see/read is that people who are dealing with the mentally ill or perpetrators and victims all the time need to keep their mental states harmonic and flexible or they will crack under the pressures.

It's the same when you teach. When you have knowledge up to an advanced level but are in a situation of teaching the basic fundamentals over and over you have to keep your mind calmly on the big picture or frustration will encroach. (It might be the same when you judge lower levels even though you have the skill and knowledge to judge the upper levels.)

You cannot allow frustration with the repetitive nature of what you are teaching creep in - that means you mustn't FEEL frustration, not that you can feel it and hide it. Because any student with a modicum of empathy will sense the frustration even if you hide it. That means you mustn't feel it. You must not experience frustration at teaching the same thing over and over or you cease to be able to teach it correctly and sympathetically.

I see the same thing in the calmness with which some people like Anubis can discuss Kim H. Not that she feels sympathy for K H, but that she has trained her mind to stay calmly focused on the big picture of the law and how she can support and utilise it and not allow the "badness" of the individual person or situation damage her ability to do her job. (Sorry if I'm assuming too much).

Giving in to melodrama a bit - you might say that Anubis's soul is on the line when she deals with clients and associates so she needs to keep it protected. But putting a hard shell over something isn't as good a protection as a flexible and sound one.

It's a similar situation for my mum, working in aged care where people need to be able to die with dignity yet being a devout Catholic who doesn't believe in euthanasia. By keeping very focused on the "big picture" which is the dignity of the individual you don't allow person feeling to colour your attention and responses.

Bohdi
13-07-16, 10:45 PM
All I see/read is that people who are dealing with the mentally ill or perpetrators and victims all the time need to keep their mental states harmonic and flexible or they will crack under the pressures.


.

Wow, as a subject matter expert on all things dressage, Bats, it is as though you sit on our shoulders, as we work, that you know, mine and Anubis's, daily gride, thank you!

mindari
13-07-16, 11:28 PM
Wow, as a subject matter expert on all things dressage, Bats, it is as though you sit on our shoulders, as we work, that you know, mine and Anubis's, daily gride, thank you!


yes, excellent Bats. hard lessons to learn at times

acaciaalba
14-07-16, 12:51 AM
yes, excellent Bats. hard lessons to learn at times

Wow :) Just wow Bhodi.

Bohdi
14-07-16, 09:12 AM
Do I ?? LOL. Well I am just saying what many others think.
Are you cheering for Bats ??
LOL !!
Go check her history,

Hey Bats were are both Dutch!

Anubis
14-07-16, 10:06 AM
Wow Bats

You really get it. Even with the delightfully purple tinge, I have never seen or heard it described so well.

Some would say my soul is a lost cause anyway

tgh05
14-07-16, 10:26 AM
#1 contender for post of the year.. well done Bats...

midnightly
14-07-16, 11:52 AM
I have a feeling that Bats was addressing my posts and if she wasn't, then please ignore. But Bats you don't get what I was saying, or more, asking. I am asking to understand, asking those who may know the underlying causes and whether or not a person must have certain character flaws before it is possible for them to do what KH has done. And all I hear is we must understand" when no real understanding is visible, to me anyway, just searches for "explanations" ... but I wanted to go deeper than that.

Bohdi
14-07-16, 12:15 PM
Hi Midders; some time ago I suffered limited exposure to KH. She is a very unhinged person who is angry and aggressive and HATES a lot of things and feels oppressed and wronged by things in her past. Her expulsion from the NSW Police, the use of her by the NSW Police as an informant and her role in the Royal Commision left her very bitter. I think she currently has a mental illness but I am not a psychologist. I can only measure her well being through her rants and raves on social media. I was once subjected to an outrageous tirade by her; she is really scary. I get the sense that her "hoarding" of horses validated her on social media as she had a massive following and was well supported, even when the evidence was against her. I think she truly believes she was rescuing those horses but she didn't have the funds to support them. She was intoxicated by her large support group; those supporters empowered her when she has probably suffered a lot in her own life. That's my take on it. I am not a fan of Kim's. Those poor poor horses some of which were paddocked down the road from me, should not have suffered and she needs to be punished. I just come onto the threads like this one, from time to time, to explain the Justice system.

Bats_79
14-07-16, 12:24 PM
Well that's a touch embarrassing but I'm glad I have picked up the right vibes from people.

Midders - no one knows. Not yet. That's why all those comments about using different clauses and how people try to "get off" due to this mental illness or that problem is still such a variable. I certainly don't know if Kim H is medically delusional or just a horrid person. The problem is that psychology / medicine / law hasn't yet been able to come to terms with the mental state of your "average" hoarder let alone going that step further to people who hoard animals and the cruelty that inevitably goes with it.

So whether it is genetic, environmental, behavioural or combinations of all three, whether there are clear signs or patterns of a developing problem - or if "hoarding" is just a cover for incredible stupidity or fear - is beyond my scope of understanding. We all have the genetic makeup that allows for "hoarding". Keeping something for emotional reasons, a keepsake or a momento, would seem to be hardwired into our brains as we learn and remember most effectively when emotion is involved.

But when the only joy that a brain experiences is the result of a "memory trigger" rather than joy in looking to the future then hoarding must certainly become an addiction..... Which still doesn't explain how someone can "hoard" for the pleasure it brings them but not see the suffering it is causing to the animals...

I'm sure that before long some misguided person will hang up a shingle and sell themselves as an expert on the issue and other people with knowledge and empathy will also chip away at working it out. In the meantime other people have to deal with it competently and the rest of us get to be frustrated and angry with the suffering we see it causing (to both animals and other people).

midnightly
14-07-16, 01:06 PM
Thank you Bohdi and Bats. :)

Anubis
14-07-16, 01:42 PM
Aristotle said something along the lines of:

"The law is mind without reason" and "The law is reason without passion"

Two seemingly contradictory statements but I take the former to mean recognition of a need for rules in society and the latter the need to interpret and apply those rules without confusing the issue

My lovely Midders

I am no fan of KH

I don't know that there will ever be a satisfactory explanation

Sometimes dreadful, soul rending things happen to the most innocent of human and animal and there is no closure for anyone.

...why would a father put a double bladed hunting knife through the head of his one year old child, leaning her maimed and in need of 24/7 care

So many tales of woe and terror and horror. You never become inured it. Something inside you dies and you become unsuprised at human vileness.

Sometimes perpetrators are just wired wrong and are beyond help and there is no closure for the victims

Sometimes there is insight. Often there is not and that is heartbreaking too.

Society is a victim too.

Like Bohdi I merely explain how the system works.

If you want to see how judicial officers feel when there is an obvious wrong for which they cannot provide closure, read the High Court Judgment in R v Raymond John Carroll [2002] HCA 55 [1]

Dealt with the murder of a child Diedre Kennedy in the 70's.

I have never heard such pain as that learned panel acquitted a murderer autrefois acquit (aka double jeopardy)

Anubis
26-07-16, 09:45 AM
AA, looks like she has another appeal in Disso Wollongong 12 August

acaciaalba
26-07-16, 12:25 PM
:( Is there ever going to be an end to that ratbag and her rubbish :(

Anubis
26-07-16, 12:36 PM
Not sure. Couldn't make it to Sydney today but will go to Wollongong on 12 August.

It has become quite convoluted.

The cat matter got a half million dollar order for the care of the animals. Most were destroyed.

That has been stayed as mental health angle looked at

doctordarling
26-07-16, 12:44 PM
I guess we will know more come the 12 August if the appeal goes ahead.

Btw I had cause to dig out that article I posted at the beginning of this thread, 'Update on Animal Hoarding' from the Psychiatric Times when my coach told me recently that a local dressage rider in this state, currently banned from competing due to a sustained, scary, and unprovoked verbal attack on a steward at a competition, has started hoarding cats and dogs. Hardly on the scale of KH, but it seems a response to stress.

here's the article again
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/addiction/hoarding-animals-update

thanks to the small, nay, claustrophobic nature of the scene in a SA, this is going to have a no names no pack drill kind of discussion

Anubis
26-07-16, 01:31 PM
Always is DD

Thanks for the reading

LisaL
26-07-16, 07:08 PM
So the judge has allowed her to keep 18 horses. The thought of the financial liability of owning one horse feels me with dread these days, I couldn't imagine wanting to own 18.

I dunno about KH, I can't see how a sane balanced person would willing chose to go into prostitution and then choose to become a copper. I suspect her anger at the world is very deep rooted.

Mental illness, brain injuries, trauma and hoarding are not well understood and it's such a new, under funded and difficult science and policy area. Hoarding is very difficult for the RSPCA and other regulatory bodies to deal with and resolve, just look at the Bondi hoarding family or the Qld poodle lady.

acaciaalba
28-07-16, 01:01 PM
18 horses !!! OMG !! Does that judge have even a clue how much it costs to keep ONE horse, let alone 18 !!
Then we hear the judge say he is giving Harriet Wran a lenient sentence because all the publicity has ruined her reputation :(
Didnt she do that herself by taking part in a murder ???
Because she is a poor little rich kid its OK to take part in a murder and we are all supposed to feel sorry for her ??
Some of these judges must live in La La land :(

midnightly
28-07-16, 01:38 PM
18 horses. When she should be banned from owning horses altogether. Not that that would stop her. Others have been banned and still carried on.

LaLa land is right. I hear today that one judge has said that prison sentences serve no purpose - well I do agree there. All except for the odd occasion when the prisoner doesn't come out alive - Carl Williams was a good outcome.

When they do come out alive they mostly re-offend. Only smarter this time because they've been to college. Not much space for people like these - no matter why they did the crime they're useless and very costly members of any community.

Exterminate!!

acaciaalba
28-07-16, 02:58 PM
I saw today a bloke who bashed his step child, a tiny little girl, to death, after months of torture , and the final bashing he left her in her pram for something like 24 hours, to die, is appealing his sentence because he isnt safe in prison. He has been bashed 4 times. So he feels he should get a shorter sentence. ( The judge dealing with him didnt muck about like some of them do ).
They said he used to bash her with an electrical cord to potty train her and she used to scream when he picked it up, then when she wet herself in fear and pain he bashed her some more.
Now he knows how she felt, and should we feel any sympathy at all for this bully boy ??
I hope the blokes inside keep giving him a dose of his own treatment, and I hope some weak judge doesnt lessen his sentence .

midnightly
28-07-16, 03:06 PM
What a total waste of oxygen!! Lock him in a room, beat him up for a while so he really really REALLY hurts, then after a few days, turn the gas on.

We don't need creeps like that.

Anubis
28-07-16, 06:16 PM
Terrible thing crimes against children.
Read a coronial report this week ... A father is about to get out of Gaol.

4 month old baby had over 70 fractures. The fatal ones being consistent with with blunt force trauma from being struck or being struck against a surface.

midnightly
28-07-16, 08:02 PM
Oh god Anubis ... how awful. Why is he coming out of gaol? In the hope that someone will murder him (slowly)? Perhaps if he'd stayed in gaol that would have happened.
This is another individual being that needs to be euthed. No, not revenge, but because there is no place for him in this world.
If there is a problem child born in the wild, the mother will not let that child/kitten/baby bear/foal live. But of course in our woooonderful society the mothers also need to be euthed.

LisaL
28-07-16, 08:07 PM
At least we are talking about domestic violence now and hopefully it will lead to greater awareness. Saw the story about the bloke bashing the baby on the Gosford train last night. All these keyboard warriors commenting that if they'd been there.... When the people who were there did intervene to help the baby. Thankfully the days of stay out of it are going.

My television died this week, honestly there's been so much terrible news over the past few weeks that I'm actually looking forward to not replacing the tv for a while.

Anubis
28-07-16, 08:32 PM
He has done nine years dearest midnight.
He plead to negligence related charge for not seeking help for the child.

He was eighteen. This was the third of his children by three different mothers to be harmed

The underage mother was also charged.

Coroner was scathing about systemic failure in FaCS NSW that pushed problems under carpet and did not research enough for SA FaCS to be alarmed. Coroner was also scathing about failure of hospital to follow through on broken thigh...only reported injury.

The system failed that little child badly.

I cried when I read that terrible report

tgh05
28-07-16, 09:00 PM
You need to do something else for a career Anubis, the price of this one is too high

Anubis
28-07-16, 09:26 PM
I am lucky this is historic Lovely Teegs.

You are right though. The price is higher for first responders and police.

I have defended some horrendous things. Child murder I could not do. There are some lines I cannot cross

These matters are far from unusual and increasing. Perhaps it is why the seeming equanimity in the face of other horrors that have "normal" people floored. Bohdi gets it

The father, his propensity for extreme violence, drug use and possibility of recidivism impacts heavily on something I am currently doing. Pathology runs in families

Have read too many coronial findings of late.

I love what I do. There are times when I can help and others I stand helplessly by. There are times when what I see triggers my PTSD badly again it is worse for frontline people.

The older I get the more I like the idea of decision making or prosecution. Bit long in the tooth though.

Bats_79
28-07-16, 10:24 PM
The older I get the more I like the idea of decision making or prosecution. Bit long in the tooth though.

Experience is needed. No one wants to look at your teeth. Do it.

tgh05
28-07-16, 10:38 PM
Gggggoooooooo bats

Anubis
29-07-16, 09:10 AM
Bats, Teegs you are wonderful

LisaL
29-07-16, 09:33 AM
Re the failures of child services. While successive governments continue to underfund family and child services and take the attitude of, lock up all the baddies in cells and not provide sufficient funding for rehabilitation programs the violence will continue.

Anubis
29-07-16, 10:13 AM
Sure you are right about funding LisaL but this appeared to be a case where a particular worker had ignored a mother's requests and advice about violence to their. Worse the Department then supported the father without a proper assessment.

By the time he left NSW with the mother of the child he killed he had numerous allegations of brutality to his two former partner and inappropriate shaking and squeezing of newborns.

This wasn't a funding issue. This was one parent presents worse than the other and gets the caseworker offside. Coroner sheeted home issue of conduct of the caseworker which led to a lack of red flags for the father.

For all the simply brilliant caseworkers, there are those who let their personal distaste for a party colour the support they give.

Coroner was also scathing about hospital

I see this from time to time. Way too much power and no accountability

LisaL
29-07-16, 08:14 PM
I'd still like to see that persons workload. Two things happen when constantly exposed to the stuff that goes on, after a while it becomes normal and with the crazy workloads people tune out to stuff that normal people would be horrified by. That and it may register but because of the workload there is no time to get back and look into the complaint.

Anubis
29-07-16, 08:18 PM
True enough. I have encountered outright malevolence in some caseworkers to the extent I wonder about the numbers of children that are permanently fostered and I consider the need for ministerial review.

I know truly brilliant caseworkers.
Some, less so