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Prancing Pony
27-05-07, 01:20 PM
Not sure how to phrase this but basically I'm just wondering how other people who maybe went thru PND and felt like they didn't want their children (either short or long-term) dealt with the attitudes of others - eg people being angry and/or ashamed of you because of it?

FLOSSY
27-05-07, 01:31 PM
Hey PP
i personally dont know much about PND but have a friend whom i think is suffering from it and it hasnt been diagnosed as she hasn't seen anyone but i dont think she has any support from her O/H and he just gets mad at her all the time because he feels his baby isnt being taken care of. I think its sad that some people have to go through this without the support of their O/H's!!

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5015/8f2eea256672a40350480d9os6.gif (http://www.glitterkiss.com)



http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/flossy6969/bruno5wks.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/flossy6969/flossyspics06172.jpg


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turtle
27-05-07, 01:31 PM
Don't allow people to be angy, ignore them, don't be ashamed, it happens. I will suggest though that you or whoever it is takes fish oil capsules. I am deadly serious. Give it about 6 weeks & you'll start to feel better. babies can't produce their own so they take their mother's, can leave you feling very depressed.

Prancing Pony
27-05-07, 01:36 PM
Hi Turtle, doesn't matter not breastfeeding but yes you're right, when I was I took them. Unfortunately I don't know how to stop ppl being angry, hoping someone else here does!! Unfortunately I can't stop being ashamed either especially since I don't know a single person who's been through this. Everyone seems to have had hard days or even a week or two where they can't cope but not 4 months. I can't help wondering what it is about me that means I can't cope, and it's impossible not to feel ashamed especially when other ppl in way worse situations than me have managed.

turtle
27-05-07, 01:40 PM
Tell them to go forth and multiply! If they want ot be constructive and help keep them around otherwise they are not your freinds & they are not helping.

pauper
27-05-07, 01:41 PM
Big hugs PP all you can do is talk, talk and talk some more! hopefully this person is just trying to "scare" you into getting better!
lots of love Pauper and TD

Birthdays are good! they mean your still alive!

Prancing Pony
27-05-07, 01:47 PM
Yep Turtle I've lost all my friends I had before I was pregnant except 1 and I've accepted that loss, the person I'm referring to this time is my sister who has refused to speak to me since Emma was about 2 weeks old, I'm really hurt but trying to find some way to change this as she used to be my best friend.

turtle
27-05-07, 01:57 PM
I'm really sorry to hear that. Can you get someone to explain to her just what PND or any other form of depression is like and that you have NO control over it. Maybe you could get her a simple booklet to read.

Prancing Pony
27-05-07, 02:07 PM
She knows Turtle, she used to be a psych nurse until she got pregnant and had PND herself, only difference being she didn't end up institutionalised with it and then end up giving the bub to someone else to care for because she didn't feel safe to. Not that I'd hurt her deliberately but my head's just empty space right now and I find myself thinking stupid, potentially deadly things are a good idea. Maybe she wonders why I can't cope when she did too. Especially since it's been 4 months now.

pauper
27-05-07, 02:24 PM
PP if you need/want to, you call me! i dont care what time it is,
Remember we are all here for you
big hugs Pauper

Birthdays are good! they mean your still alive!

Gunny
27-05-07, 02:26 PM
The general conception is that child birth and motherhood is a wonderful thing, the reality is IT'S NOT LIKE THAT FOR EVERYONE. To be honest I think it took me two year to adjust to having a baby and for the first 12 months I would’ve been happy to throw a rope over a rafter, it took so much out of me both mentally and physically.

I had trouble breast feeding and when my husband rang the breast feeding mob and told them I was in tears on the floor and had been there for 5 hours and could not physical stop the tears their reply was to "keep persisting with the breast feeding" I ended up back in hospital and came out with my baby on the bottle with my doctor telling me to shove the breast feeding. I was also prescribed Aropax for a short term period only and yes that did help.

Everyone deals with having a child differently. Some were born to do it and other are not, but you have been dealt "this hand of cards so you have to play them the best way you can". They do grow on you, a girlfriend once said "basically they are the same as other animals, teach them, discipline them, protect them and you will love them", and to some extend I think this is true.

You will be given heaps of advice, take it all in and then make your own conclusion as to what and how you want to do things with yourself and your child, don’t rush it, thing will fall into place as you go along. I just don’t plan anything that can’t be changed due to a ill or cranky toddler and when I have a few moments to spare I do something horsey, and if I’m really tired my child and I will have a quick cat nap together in the afternoon and sending your child to daycare a day or two each week does not make you an inadequate mum it gives you a bit of you time. I'd hate to say this but I was never a child person but now I would die for my child.

P.S. The best bit of advice I ever got was “bugger the washing or the house sleep when your baby sleeps”.

"Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards and in high heels"

emma23
27-05-07, 02:28 PM
You need to talk to someone and seek help....what about your child health nurse?
My mother in law had PND & didn't bring her son up for the 1st 3 yrs of his life...she had the works to treat it, even ECT. If she didn't get this help, who knows what she would have done to either herself or her child.

Here are some helplines:
PND support group Tel. (03) 9428 4600
The Royal Women’s Hospital Tel (03) 9344 2000

Visit this website
http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?link_id=1.3&gclid=CPzHoNHpq4wCFSZJYAodkTEnKg

Might just give you some insight about the way your feeling.
Don't worry about your sister...everyone suffers differently and some people have depression much worse than others.

Please contact someone....you don't have to go through this alone.

FLOSSY
27-05-07, 02:30 PM
Have you sat down and asked your sister what the problem is????why is she not helping you and that maybe if she gave you some support and guidence with your baby you may find a bit more strength to raise her again. Raising children is not easy my brother is trying to bring up a 2yr old boy a 6yr old girl and an 11 yr old boy on his own and he has his bad days for sure thats when i have the kids and give him time off. we all should be able to ask for help without feeling like a bad person.

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http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/flossy6969/bruno5wks.jpg
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Prancing Pony
27-05-07, 02:50 PM
Flossy I've tried, she won't even talk to me, hangs up or gets her child to tell me she's not home if I ring.

Thanks Emma, I'm in WA tho but I have been seeking help, I was institutionalised but they kicked me out after about a month saying I was 'too well' to be there, I left feeling worse than I did when I went in and although I've spoken to heaps of ppl since they just seem to say it will get better with no advice on what to do in the meantime.

Gunny it's not the physical side of this I have an issue with, I've had a fair bit to do with babies and am confident handling her, I am trying to deal with this the best way I can and at the moment I think (I'm not sure, I don't know anything for sure right now) that's for someone else to look after her. I don't think sending 'em to daycare twice a week makes you a bad mum, when I was going to have her I was gonna put her in daycare every day, that didn't work either as it only takes a coupla minutes with her for me to go from being "OK" to being distraught. The first night I tried to O.D., makes it hard to wait for things to 'fall into place' when I suspect that one of us wouldn't survive it. I'm just sorry it didn't work.

I've come to suspect there just is no answers and no help to be had, I'll just muddle through best way I can until either I get better or something gives and I can't take it any more, I'm just really trying to reduce the impact on those around me including my sister.

Gunny
27-05-07, 02:57 PM
Gee Pancing Pony I wish I could help, I found it hard but you are doing it realy hard, do you mind me asking if they suggest any type of medication?

"Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards and in high heels"

a_little_oc
27-05-07, 03:03 PM
Rp,
I'm so sorry that is happening to you.
I have tears in my eyes reading this.

Emma has given you some really good links there. especially the PND Suppory Group.

PND is often caused or made worse by hormone imbalances.

I'm sorry you sister has no compassion towards you, especially as she went through similar things, and I would have thought her psych training would have made her more aware and able to help.

My mother was a nurse.
She had no compassion towards me either.
I had Post traumatic Stress
from having a caesarian without enough anesthetic.
I was put on medication in hospital, which gave me severe allergic reactions-made me bend backwards in fitting nearly touching the backs of my heals, and MY mother said I was just being naughty.
Mind you I was 34yrs old.
I ended up in a psych. hospital,
and had a course of 6 ECT treatments.
It took me nearly 4yrs to be able to discuss it at all with anyone.

If you ever need someone else to talk to, please email me.
I am happy to give you my phone number as wel if you need it.

Sometimes just talking to someone who has suffered similar depressive problems, can help

Please don't let people make you feel you are a bad mother.
And please don't be ashamed either.
The PND support group should be able to help you a lot.

turtle
27-05-07, 03:09 PM
Keep taking the fish oil and DO NOT worry about reducing the impact on anyone except for you and your daughter. You are the only ones that really count except of course for OH if there is one. If she can't handle your depression then that is her problem, try not to make it yours.

I know this is a very hard time for you. Try to find small things every day that give you joy. Not much help I know, but it's all I can suggest.

Also, you now know we are hear to listen and not judge.

PND is very real and I consider myself fortunate not to have been affected.

Do you know what it is that triggers your reactions and makes you so distressed? Maybe you could try breaking it down into tiny little bite sized pieces that you can deal with.

There is too much expectation that mums should immediately bond. You are not alone, there are cast numbers of women who experience it to varying degrees, but yours sounds fairly full on.

Be gentle with yourself and accept that it's OK for you to have these emotions. But please don't hurt yourself or anyone else. Keep pestering the doctors too. Don't let them fob you off.

emma23
27-05-07, 03:19 PM
This has really upset me & makes me wonder what the hell this country is doing for people that need & are searching for help!!

I am a nurse (emergency) and I can't come to grips with other nurses that do not understand these illnesses!!

Please just contact some people...even those on here who are offering an ear to talk to and a shoulder to cry on....you can't just be pushed aside & left to defend on your own.
Your sister needs a good kick up the ass!!!

fernloch_girl
27-05-07, 03:40 PM
Hi PP,

PND is actually quite different from other types of depression. When you're pregnant, you're levels of 'endorphins' increase a lot. Endorphins are the brains natural 'feel good' chemicals, and are almost identical to drugs such as heroin, for example (ie. the opioids). Endorphins not only mask physical pain, but they help us to deal with emotional pain - no wonder they are needed during pregnancy!!! And before you ask...NO I don't have children, but YES I have been pregnant twice (no further comment).

This is where PND varies. Some women find that they get a massive endorphin drop as soon as they give birth. Others find that their endorphin levels stay elevated whilst they're breast feeding, and then they drop (this is delayed PND). SOOOO PND feels VERY MUCH like a mild form of Heroin Withdrawal. You have no coping mechanism for physical OR emotional pain. Generally MUCH worse than 'normal' depression. However, like heroin withdrawal, if you know what's happening to your body and have support, and don't follow it with more drugs, it is usually fairly short lived.

Suzie Q
28-05-07, 01:24 AM
You need to surround yourself with people who understand and love you PP.

If that is not your sister then so be it. I hate to say it, but I don't like to see her dragging you down.

Rather than call, send her a lovely letter.

Reneem1377
28-05-07, 03:02 AM
Hi PP,
people have said some really lovely things here, its really heartening to hear.

My sister-in-law is battling very badly with depression and has for her whole life...she recently tried to commit suicide (she has 2 kids) and the lack of mental health services providided to her here in WA is APPALLING...she was hospitalised in ICU until her body recovered (from the pills) then discharged...end of story. She's tried to admit herself to hospitals and basically been refused a bed, it makes me sick how we treat people who are really suffereing with a legitamate illness that they can't control. She wont talk to any of the family at the moment (even though we're all very supportive and want to help her) and is basically struggling through life unassisted...

Prancing Pony, this may not be the type of illness you can work through yourself...depression tends not to just 'go away' and i really recommend finding a Dr who is sympathetic to your condition and who can recommend a good psych, counselling, medication, support group...whatever it takes...keep trying until you find someone...One thing I've learned is that no one from the hospital system is going to follow you up and make sure you get the help necessay, it is very much up to the individual to constantly demand it from the system.

You are obviously a very smart, sensible person for acknowledging that you are not able to take care of your baby at this time, especially if you are having disturbing thoughts...well done for protecting her and putting her first, you are being an excellent mother just by doing that alone. Right now is a time that you have to use to look after yourself and get yourself well, try not to worry about anyone else at this stage.

This is something that you CAN get through. Take one day at a time. Keep looking for help, make it your priority. I wish you the very best, keep talking about it and don't be ashamed...you wouldn't feel ashamed if you developed cancer and couldn't look after your child would you? Well this is the same, you have an illness that you can't control that will take some time to recover from...but when you do you will be as right as rain...best wishes, my thoughts are with you...

Renee.

Prancing Pony
28-05-07, 06:57 AM
Gunny I'm on meds, they're not doing anything but the psych says I'm too unstable to change them to something else. But not unstable enough to be hospitalised.

Fernloch girl I felt exactly the same way throughout the pregnancy as lots of ppl can attest to, I first posted about this at about 4 months pregnant when I didn't hant the baby but OH did. I spent every day of my pregnancy in tears so dunno where those endorphins you mentioned went? Bummer.

Reneem sorry to hear about your S-I-L, tell her to go into Alma Street Centre in Freo or even better take her in there, they are great and should give her a bed, the only reason I don't go there is because I can't take Emma and I'm worried being away from her completely while it sounds lovely will be a bad thing for me and make it harder to bond.

fernloch_girl
28-05-07, 07:32 AM
Oh, you poor darling :( You can change antidepressants when you're really ill (personal experience), but it's tough. You need a good psychiatrist to see you through the process and instead of doing it over weeks, having a week off in the middle and then starting a new one, you reduce dose of old one over two days and straight onto high dose of new one.

It took me ages to find a good psych after my motorbike accident. The one I've had for a few years now is brilliant, and is the head psych of one of Melbourne's biggest psych hospitals (I see him as an outpatient a few times a year to check my meds). Talk to your GP (or find a new good GP via a recommendation) who can word you up on your local GOOD public psych hospital and enquire about attending as an outpatient, rather than being admitted. They will keep an eye on you and care for you, whilst having MASSIVE experience at the same time. PM me if you like :) *HUG* Being a herbalist and Naturopath, I could offer natural therapies as help, but it sounds like you need the 'big guns'...

Cybergirl
28-05-07, 07:58 AM
This is just awful. I have never had kids or PND, but have had depression twice. The second time I had the sense to go and ask the dr for antidepressants, thank goodness! I wish I'd thought to ask for them the first time. I think you might need to try another brand/type of medication ultimately.

As I'm now quite fascinated with psychology, I went and read Brooke Shield's book about PND, it's called something like "And Then the Rain Came Down", it's quite good. There is so much help out there in the form of books, internet info, telephone help lines, counselling, etc - avail yourself of everything!

Prancing Pony, please tell us what is it that you are thinking and feeling, about yourself and your daughter? You're making a cry for help but still haven't really explained what's going on in your head/heart?!

Anarabis
28-05-07, 09:15 AM
PP hang in there things do get better

i had labour pains on monday went into hospital late monday night still hadnt had the kid by thursday morning despite having the shakes which the nurse told me ment wouldnt be long now....
i had an emergency caeser on thurs and went out going thru swinging doors .. (it seemed to me) as i went thru the swinging doors i was given a baby and the nurse said this is your baby ... i said no it aint i havent had one yet....you should have seen her face... she didnt know what to say or do... if it had not been for my mum in the back ground with a goofy look on her face i would not have took the kid ... as it was i took it very suspiciously... i didnt bond with the kid.. i was jealous because my mum had been and seen my baby and held him befor i came too... i didnt realise i had PND ... i had it for two years and i would never want anyone to go thru it... my son is 17 now and im just happy that he seems normal despite his abnormal upbringing... please talk to some of the ppl on here talk to me if you like .... but remember things do get better
i just wish i knew what was happening to me i was 19 my parents didnt want to know me because i was a single parent my o/h wanted me to get rid of it...
your a step ahead of me you at least know whats happening
good luck best wishes and remember you will get thru it
and in several years you will wonder what all the fuss was about good luck

Prancing Pony
28-05-07, 09:24 AM
Fernloch they won't see you as an outpatient at the psych hospital here for more than 2 weeks, they reckon they don't have the funding, I think it might of been because the psychiatrist said I was an enigma and he didn't know what to make of me which is not really very helpful. He also said he didn't think I was depressed but has me on meds and says I'm too unstable to change so not sure how that fits?
I've got a really good GP now, but the bottom line is if there's nothing to help then there's nothing to help. She says if I'm feeling suicidal then to go into the hospital and tell them but truth is that's the last thing I'm gonna do - if I feel that bad then I also believe that nothing and no-one can help, anyone that's ever attempted suicide will tell the same story.

Cybergirl there's numerous posts where I've gone into detail about that stuff, do a search on my login and you'll find 'em, theyre all called PND or baby blues or something along those lines. Too drained to go into it all again.

I've got heaps of info, including a psych degree which I think's probly done more than good as it's only armed me to hide how I'm really feeling if I want to which sometimes when I'm really low I do.

turtle
28-05-07, 11:51 AM
Look out PP, I've just sent a big, warm Turtle hug to keep you safe.

Don't hide your feelings. The people truly who care will be there for you and they need to know just where you are at.

My best mate is on meds for depression, serious suicidal thoughts, depression so I know how hard it can be. I am here for her and now for you as well.

Wrap yourself in my hug, I sent it just for you.

Aida
28-05-07, 02:21 PM
When I had my baby - my OWN MOTHER tried to tell me I had PNG because I wouldn't let her rule the roost while I was in hospital.

She threw a huge scene when the nurses told her that my child was sleeping and it wasn't visiting hours.

Her intimidation after my son's birth threw me for a six.
It took me 8 years to tell her that my child was MY CHILD - and right down to his hair cuts, or clothes, or choice of sports - he had a right to choose!!

I don't want to bore you with any more details - but all I know is that when you have a baby -

No-one tells you that YOU are in charge.
No-one tells you that relatives try to manipulate you.
No-one tells you that you might not feel those 'over-whelming' maternal feelings.
No-one tells you that you feel like you've been thrown into No-Mans-Land without a paddle.
AND....no-one shows you how to nourish feelings of love for your child.

Maybe you need to rid your mind of your sister and her problem.
Don't pick her over your baby.
Don't give her a second thought.

The one thing that hit me between the eyes when I was struggling, was a friend who said that she would drive me and my son out to the middle of OZ and leave me with a weeks supplies - then come pick me up, and if we were still there when she came for me - I would be forever OK.

I agreed - we got in the car - and about half and hour down the road I erupted.....it wasn't pretty....but suffice to say - she knew me, and she knew I needed to get out of my comfort zone.

I think you know the solution.

I just think you haven't given it a voice.

You have a good brain - and a lovely personality - if your writing style is anything to go by.

You need to find YOU.
Then you need to find YOU + BABY.

Just do what you have to do.

JJ01
28-05-07, 02:47 PM
Hi there PP

I'm very sorry to hear how distressed you feel. I remember reading through all of your posts before while you were pregnant. I was wondering what your O/H was up to now?

Also, at risk of making myself incredibly unpopular and copping HEAPS of abuse here, I will try to ask this in the nicest most thoughtful possible way that I can .....

do you think, under the circumstances, that perhaps you should consider adoption or perhaps a short-term foster family as an alternative, and if so would you have a family member or would your OH consider it?

I have had some personal experience with PND but certainly not to the extent you are speaking about. For me too, having babies was not like the Johnson & Johnson commercials on TV, and sometimes I felt really resentful towards my boys. But never to the real extent of feeling like I was going to harm them (mind you, sometimes I just had to let them cry somewhere they were safe and make a cup of tea and sit outside for a while so I could get away before I did something I'd regret).

It just seems a little to me like you are saying you knew you didnt want to have a baby, but you went through with it hoping your feelings would change, and they didnt, and now you still dont want to have a baby, to the point you have become very very distressed and unstable. I just wonder if for both you and Emma, maybe there are other options to consider?

I wish you all the best and I am very glad at least you can "get it out" on CH and not suffer silently.

JJ
xxx

CM
29-05-07, 12:33 AM
PP you are at least on the first rung of the ladder in terms of knowing what is going on with you. I can't even begin to imagine the isolation and feelings you must be going through, but I have had freinds and relatives with PND - and they and their kids have come out the other side quite fine - eventually.

Have you read Brooke Sheilds' book about PND? OK, she is a wealthy celebrity, with probably every resource available to her, but from what I've heard, her story is a very personal one and might resonate with you.

Also, have you considered seeing a psychologist and undergoing some cognitive behaviour therapy? (In conjuction with your drug therapy). If noting else, it can help you learn to control your feelings, even though those feelings and emotions are arising out of the chemical imbalances in your brain.

Cognitive behaviour therapy works a bit like when you do ground work (or dressage) with a horse - you train the responses you want, and you don't allow room or opportunity for the wrong responses (such as flight) to take place. You also work on behaviour ("self -talk" in a human) which elicits "feel-good" brain chemicals, such as lowering the head works in a horse. And you repeat the "good" responses over and over, starting with easy ones, until a pattern emerges which overrides the old, untrained reactions.

Psychologists are covered under Medicare these days, and if you can find a good one (female???) they can make a huge difference. THIS is what the dammned psych hospital should also be offering you! Unfortunately there is sometimes a gulf between psychiatrists (who are doctors) and psychologists (who train for almost as long and have at the very least a Masters degree!). The psychiatrists are the ones who generally dictate what goes on at the hospitals, and who dole out the drugs.

As for the way the people around you are treating you and making you feel guilty - it is as if they are on the other side of a vast chasm, because since they are not in your mind space, they can't understand what you are feeling. And because of your condition, your are probably somewhat paranoid about othe people's responses to you (this is not a criticism of you) and maybe are not always reading their reactions accurately.

And as for the care of your child...you are being remarkably responsible for identifying your inability in caring for her. The problem is, if you'd had a catastrophic accident, everyone would be rallying around, an no-one would criticise you for having other - more capable - people look after her. Unfortunately, this is the problem with mental illness - it is not as visible as a physical injury.

So, that's the way it is. I'm sure that when you come through this - and you WILL - in a few years those same people will have forgotten their responses to you, and the pain of how they made you feel will have faded.

ally2
29-05-07, 01:50 AM
can only offer my best wishes PP as one who has not been able to find any way on how to advise 3 daughters with varying degrees of PND apart from suggesting 'expert' help reading etc - the one who chose not to seek help has suffered the longest feels more guilt has no close friends only acquaintances but at least has strong family support..so keep talking & searching for a way forward for both you & Emma

scooti
29-05-07, 01:51 AM
(((( HUGS PP ))))

macrannoch
29-05-07, 03:12 AM
Hello Husband, it's your wifey....hehehehehehehe

Honestly darl, i have no understanding of what you are going through, there has been some good advice above, the only thing I can do is offer an ear, a shoulder and an open door, welcome any time.

Just keep on trying to get the help, I know you will find someone who can help you the way you need it ,as we all manage differently. just take it one day at a time and try to see the small things.

Big Hugs and Support.

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