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bobby_01
19-06-07, 01:21 PM
Does anyone have any experiences or know any infomation on preventing sand colic? as I have had 2 horses get it and one of them died from it. I now only have one horse wich I have had for about a month and he is curently getting about 2-3 biscuits of hay per day and 1 bucket of lucean chaff per day. I know about psylium, but how much do I give and how often?(he currently gets it 5-6 days every month) also is getting chamomile as I was told it helps because it calms their stomach. any info or experiences would be really helpfull, thanks

shaiarabs
19-06-07, 01:28 PM
as much hay and or pasture as possible is the best way to go and oil drench and painkiller if they have an episode.

depending how much they have in their gut already it can take a period of time for it to go through

couldnt get much worse than my last rescue she is fully back to normal now but has taken almost a year
this is her page http://www.freewebs.com/shaiarabs/rescues.htm
Liesl

bobby_01
19-06-07, 01:46 PM
thanks for your reply

crj
20-06-07, 12:33 AM
Hi,
Try adding a couple of cup of bran to every feed. This will keep things moving!!!!

GLENTON 40
20-06-07, 01:40 AM
Hi
We live in a very high sand area and deal with sand colics every year especially after a long drought and then rain.
Although pasture can be good, it isnt if the horse is pulling it out as soon as it sprouts and therefore ingesting more sand.

We lock our horses up in a smaller area where the sand isnt too bad, and feed out 1-2 bails of good quality meadow hay, along with their hard feeds. This is done until the grass has a good growth and does not come up by the roots.

Pshillium Husk is the best preventative there is and all vets will highly recommend it. You should give your horse one cup full for 5 days straight once per month in bad areas, in good areas (less sand) a five day treatment every 2-3 months.

Also feed your horse off of the ground, eg, put hay in a bath or feed bins and the like, that way they are not picking up more sand as they finish of their feeds.

Is there a reason you are only feeding lucern caff, the reason I ask is a good sign your horse is taking in too much sand is they usually get the squirts, but if your horse is on green feed as per time of year and lucern chaff, with no other substance in it, it will be hard for you to tell if it has the squirts from feed or sand.

A good diet for your horse may be to give a scoop of lucern chaff along with a scoop of a white chaff, eg, oaten or wheaten. also oats, barley and horse blends are all good feeds. I dont bother with bran as my horses are also fed speedy beet daily and this acts similar to bran, except it has far more goodness.

I do so hope things will be well for you.

Good luck
GLENTON QUARTERHORSES
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

simron
20-06-07, 01:57 AM
I have read here on Cyberhorse (in a previous thread) that there is new evidence and studies that show psyllium does not work very effectively. There is a recipe available from Horseproblems website that many people swear by. You make up the recipe and feed it to your horses orally; apparently a heap of sand comes out in their poo.

Sunflower
20-06-07, 02:27 AM
We have had a lot of experience with sand colic.... lost one a few years ago. Had a small welsh pony that did a four day stint and cost $1500, and my daughters pony last year after four days ended up with a sand impaction, 24 hours of iv fluids, and $3000.

Living in a very dry and sandy area, I think it is all about prevention, and doing the best you can.

Our horses all eat of rubber matts to reduce sand ingestion. Every week I do a 'poo test' to check the varying levels of sand being passed by each. They are all fed a high fibre diet and have access to as much dry hay as I can afford. And they are all fed psyllium - daughters pony has 300g for two nights in a row every fortnight. Others all have 100g/100kg body weight for three nights once a month.

Does psyllium work? Well, I don't know... maybe it's the psyllium, maybe its eating off matts now, maybe its eating extra hay. But, for what it costs me, I am certain it doesn't hurt them :). And, we will continue to do it.

I buy from the big chain supermarkets in the health food section, can usually pick up a kg for about $7.

K.

PS edited to correct spelling errors :)

spana22
20-06-07, 02:44 AM
John Kohnke has a fact sheet on sand colic. There is a number on his website to ring to get a copy http://www.kohnkesown.com/

He recommneds Pysillium Husk but in a very high dose over three (i think) consecutive days and repeat this every few months. He also suggests checking the poo after the treatment. There should be slimy coating on it. Also by washing it in water you will be able to see how much sand has been removed as the sand will settle to the bottom of the bucket.

I attend one of his seminars a few months ago and he said if pysillium husk is fed in smaller doses over a longer period it won't work. He also said soaking hay (to prevent dust) and feeding from the ground out of a bin or bucket.

I have heard of a few horses around my area dying of sand colic too and it is really a worry. I have treated my horses with physillium husk and have not had any dramas so far (touch wood)

courtleigh
20-06-07, 03:30 AM
If psyllium husk is fed too consistently horses can learn to digest it and it won't do it's required job. It needs to be fed as required for sand at a rate of 100g per 100kg of body weight and to be mixed as a slurry with a little oil and molasses water and then poured over feed for three days once per month.

The water test is a good way of detecting sand and if you have more than a tablespoon of sand in a whole, fresh poo, then you have a sand problem.

I wouldn't be feeding psyllium as a regular thing only when required.

puddled
20-06-07, 04:17 AM
I also have the sand colic hassles (one last week)over the years I've tried various different avenues I usually (If my work schedule allows) feed my horses boiled linseed and french millet an old horseman once told me that the gel gathers the sand through the gut. Usually the stabled horses have this and it seems only the horses out all day on pasture have the bouts with sand colic.
I also used a fewtimes a very unconventional method told to me by and old bushy using milk and honey to avoid sand colic - it worked although my vet was horrifid.
The usual feeding the horses off the ground and preventing them from tipping over their feeders helps.

mik_rog
20-06-07, 05:00 AM
Hi - I'm sorry to hear about your horse. I also recently lost a horse through colic and have done a bit of research into how to prevent it in my other horse. I hope this helps :)

This is a test to see how 'colic prone' your horse is:
Pick up one fresh manure (make sure you do not pick up dirt or sand with it, and make sure you collect it as soon as the horse goes). Put it in a bucket and drench it with water. It look disguisting and stinks!! But leave it overnight somewhere out of the whether - so sand, dust and dirt cannot get in. The next day, remove the water. Have a look at the amount of sand left in the bucket. Anything more than 2 tablespoons is need for concern. Anything under is considered normal.

Metamucil:
This is apparently fantastic at removing sand from horses stomachs. Colic-prone horses (as from the above test), should be given half a canister once every month. Other horses should be given half a canister about once every 2 months. This will ensure their stomachs remain free of sand.

Cold:
This is a huge cause of colic - and one many people are unaware of. If the horse becomes suddenly cold, or is very cold in his paddock, the stomach is more inclined to spasm and cause colic than a warm horse. Make sure you rug appropriately :)

Other than that... just the usual: buy good quality hay, make sure you look at it before feeding, and weight your hrad feed to ensure your horse is getting enough (and not too much). Try to keep feed times consistent from day to day, and make sure the horse doesn't eat to soon before or after a ride.

I hope all that helps! :)

carly82
20-06-07, 05:38 AM
Hi there,
John O'Leary has some good hints on colic, see www.horseproblems.com.au
I too have heard that psyllium does nothing (in the portions that a horse will eat, anyway!). My most successful method seems to be LOTS of good quality hay.
cheers,
Carly

Neisje
20-06-07, 05:46 AM
I have found psylium to work well, also plent of hay. And if your in a very sandy area do everything possible to keep their feed off the ground, such as feeding hay in big bins or on rubber mats.

Metamucil is a very expensive form of psylium with added flavouring etc to make it palatible for humans, if you are feeding it to horses use psylium it will cost you a fraction of the price.

That other sand cure on that horseproblems site is a crock of %&*. Sorry to those that use it and like it! But this guy charges for something that used to be used years ago by old farmers to clean out sand. Ask your vet and he will tell you that the reason it cleans out sand is because it actually makes your horse sick! Basically gives it a mild case of the equivilent to food poisoning, thus flushing everything out of its gut. So yeah it cleans out sand, as well as everything else, good as well as bad, that is in the gut. But causing possible serious damage to your horse in the process.

Neisje

bobby_01
20-06-07, 06:52 AM
Thanks sooo much everyone for your help, I will definetly follow all your ideas.

shaiarabs
20-06-07, 11:02 AM
http://www.ecmagazine.net/Winter0607/SandColic.htm

Sapphire
20-06-07, 02:09 PM
Just in response to this - vets dont know everything. And certainly some vets are better than others. They tend to use treatments that they have been taught to use just because they have no other medical solutions (ie psylium). Sand colic isnt straight forward. I have the horseproblems recipe just in case because as far psylium goes it seems to have a hit and miss success rate if you do the research. And hell if an old fashioned remedy can help and save a horse then why not.

I also think Mr Horseproblems is an amazing horseman (his articles are wonderful and show true insight in to horses and the horse industry). Yes he is controversial and people dont agree with him but thats simply cause he is honest and goes against traditional thinking. Therefore I respect his research and knowledge on the sand issue.

Anywho - just be careful when it comes to trusting traditional vets 100%, they dont have all the answers. Try headshaking for instance - the vets couldnt help my horse there, all they wanted to do was use trial and error and pump all sorts of drugs in to him to see what might work. So I gave em the flick and looked for other options. A couple of alternative treatments have relieved it somewhat - now embarking on acupuncture to help even more. Medical science for both animals and humans is important - but often you need to look outside that to find all the answers. And dont just take the word of ONE vet.

simron
21-06-07, 04:50 AM
I am a bit confused about all this. I have read that the poo in water test is not all that accurate/diagnostic as apparently most of the sand "sinks" and compacts in the intestine and the poo sits on top of the sand as it passes down the intestinal tract(sand being heavier than poo this seems logical due to physics but then again how powerful are those gastrointestinal muscles). So basically, some opinion is that the sand stays in the GI tract. I was going to give my horses the "bushy" remedy and my vets were concerned about giving horses milk but I guess the fact that they can't digest milk is why it could work!? Vets do still just seem to recommend psyllium but it seems that it does not work?

LindaH
21-06-07, 06:03 AM
I'd agree with feeding plenty of bulk and fibreous material, lots of good drinking water and feeding in a feed bin so the horse doesn't pick up sand while eating.
We also feed a product called Sweetbulk. It is oat hulls treated with molasses and minerals. Not much feed value, but plenty of fibre and the horses love it.
At one stage our horses were stabled on sand for a while when it was the only bedding we could get. They had no problems. Our old place obviously had the conditions to cause sand colic, because the people who bought it from us had 2 horses go down with sand colic in the first month they were there. We never had a problem in the 5 years we had horses there! We have always fed a lot of hay, use tyre feeders in the paddock and feed 1 small bucket of Sweetbulk at least once a day.

shaiarabs
21-06-07, 06:38 AM
see this fatty, thats sand he lived on for 5 yrs straight not a blade of grass in site, what kept him that healthy, hay on tap never ever ran out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shaiarabs1/AstanaStattik50305.jpg

here in WA we have the worst rate of sand colic around

the filly in the link in my first post nearly died within 3 hrs of arriving at my house due to the biggest gut full of sand the vet had ever heard, his advise if she lived till morning was pasture and hay and lots of it constantly, my comment was no problem you know I dont have colics. 25 yrs and not one colic, until I rescued this filly.

she had 50/50 chance of survival. shes alive and well she was drenched only that night and given pain killer, I dont feed psyllium, I feed hay on tap they never ever run out, after 10 months her gut is now back to its normal shape, the sand in her gutt is gone.

there are many reasons to feed forage on a perminant basis besides just colic, they are designed to eat constantly, never being without food for a moment could assist with twists in the gut, ulcers, condition, boredom and much more.

Neisje
21-06-07, 06:43 AM
I certainly don't just listen to one vet! I work in the vet industry and have spoken to numerous vets. One used to work in an area 30 years ago, where all the farmers used this remedy, and he said it took a long time of him seeing sick horses before some of them finally started to listen too him that THEY were making their horses sick. Horses cannot digest dairy products! So they upset the gut and pass through it. Kind of like if you have lactose intolerance it upsets your tummy, and gives you the runs! When I first saw that remedy, my first instinct, having been around horses my whole life and around vets along time and now in the industry was like hang on you can't give a horse dairy products! So I started asking some vets. One vet who I gave the website too and the remedy and simply said can you read this and give me your opinion. His response was 'fruitcake' LOL When I said please elaborate :-) He said the guy has some good idea's and some good preventative suggestions, but then goes off with the fairy's when he suggests using that remedy. He said its old and been around for donkeys years but its not good.

And an old fashioned remedy may not be safe to use just because it works. Heck Arsenic worked too, they used to feed that to horses, well until they found out that arsenic builds up over time and horses started dropping dead from it.

Neisje

>Just in response to this - vets dont know everything. And
>certainly some vets are better than others. They tend to
>use treatments that they have been taught to use just
>because they have no other medical solutions (ie psylium).
>Sand colic isnt straight forward. I have the horseproblems
>recipe just in case because as far psylium goes it seems to
>have a hit and miss success rate if you do the research.
>And hell if an old fashioned remedy can help and save a
>horse then why not.
>
>I also think Mr Horseproblems is an amazing horseman (his
>articles are wonderful and show true insight in to horses
>and the horse industry). Yes he is controversial and people
>dont agree with him but thats simply cause he is honest and
>goes against traditional thinking. Therefore I respect his
>research and knowledge on the sand issue.
>
>Anywho - just be careful when it comes to trusting
>traditional vets 100%, they dont have all the answers. Try
>headshaking for instance - the vets couldnt help my horse
>there, all they wanted to do was use trial and error and
>pump all sorts of drugs in to him to see what might work.
>So I gave em the flick and looked for other options. A
>couple of alternative treatments have relieved it somewhat -
>now embarking on acupuncture to help even more. Medical
>science for both animals and humans is important - but often
>you need to look outside that to find all the answers. And
>dont just take the word of ONE vet.

Neisje
21-06-07, 06:56 AM
Yes esactly right, they cant digest milk so it basically upsets their gut and this is what gets out the sand (and anything else in there including good bacteria)

I fed psyllium regularly when I was in a sandy area, now I am not and rarely feed it, but they are on lots of hay all the time. And I think plenty of hay works better than anything. However if you have a horse that is a bit painful with sand passing through or has the runs or black manure (good sign of sand) then psyllium can clean them out fast and then onto lots of hay. I had a filly that was 10 months old and feral, never been touched when I got her at all. We had just brought her down with her mum when she came down with bad colic. I was thinking great how am I going to get a vet to do anything with her! While we were trying to set up a kind of crush/trapping thing in her yard I was watching her and thought yup its sand. So cancelled vet, gave her a feed with psylium and bute and watched her. By morning she was over the worst just a bit grumpy still, more psylium that day and by later that day she was back to her normal (feral LOL) self.

Now I always have psylium on hand but don't feed it unless needed, but if I notice anyone with sloppy manures or looking a bit uncomfortable the first thing they get is a psylium feed and 99% of the time it fixes them up.

Neisje

>I am a bit confused about all this. I have read that the poo
>in water test is not all that accurate/diagnostic as
>apparently most of the sand "sinks" and compacts in the
>intestine and the poo sits on top of the sand as it passes
>down the intestinal tract(sand being heavier than poo this
>seems logical due to physics but then again how powerful are
>those gastrointestinal muscles). So basically, some opinion
>is that the sand stays in the GI tract. I was going to give
>my horses the "bushy" remedy and my vets were concerned
>about giving horses milk but I guess the fact that they
>can't digest milk is why it could work!? Vets do still just
>seem to recommend psyllium but it seems that it does not
>work?

Delta72
21-06-07, 07:45 AM
Well, that bushy remedy worked a treat on my TB gelding. He had been scouring on and off for a while, had been wormed out and always had 24/7 access to a round roll. He would not drink it, so I just mixed his dinner into it. He has not scoured since. I cannot see the harm in feeding milk, cream and honey. I would NOT recommend it to laminitics though, as they could well founder after colic and that!!

bobby_01
21-06-07, 10:45 AM
I have been on the horseproblems web site but how do I get the recipie I think you have to pay with pay pal but not sure what that is, is there an other way to get it?
thanks

Caz No 2
21-06-07, 12:33 PM
Have been using Horseproblems remedy for years and haven't had a colic since.

I also do not trust or take on what vets say. Vets don't have all the answers. I would rather use HP's advise, as ask him how many colics he HASN'T had and how many other peoples horses he has saved with his remedy.

If you email him he will let you know of other methods to pay. Its well worth the $10.

bobby_01
21-06-07, 01:10 PM
just wondering do you only give them the horseproblems recipe if they have already got colic or is it to prevent it? and how many days to you give it to them for?