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???
06-04-01, 01:45 AM
Just wondering about other ideas on this subject. Having been to a few warmblood days and young horse comps it seems the trend for the WB breeding is to breed a more refined (if not pretty) type of WB. They seem to be getting very close to a TB type (nothing wrong with the TB). The powerful swinging movement seems to be replaced for a very pretty type of movement (the type seen in the hack ring (nothing wrong with that either)). I just find it a shame as I really liked the WBs being a bit different and more powerful. I've always seen the WB as a big powerful animal with loads of presence but not necessarily pretty.

Carola
06-04-01, 02:31 AM
Yes, they have changed a bit.... They are more elegant, lighter, "prettier" (as you say) but also have "this" big movement - the movement that everybody wants but only few can sit.
Is it a trend (as in "fashion") or is it the result of careful selective breeding to design the most appropriate animal "for the job"?

Personally, I liked the heavier "Goldstern" types, but I also admire the elegance of the new-time WB's.

Ahhh - actually... I love them all.

Judith NZ
06-04-01, 04:56 AM
Oh yes the newer lines are beautiful,athletic and light on their feet. Can't beat that. (And this is coming from a ISH breeder.:-)) I still think the TB is the most beautiful of all breeds but as a riding horse they don't suit my purposes.
What does concern me with the huge influx of TB blood going into some of the new lines is the rideability. SOme of the older heavy lines where tough and then with the more TB in the lines we are seeing more of the TB temperament. Hot, sensitive and often volatile and often still tough.
Put that into a bigger horse than the average TB and you have a horse that is perhaps not suited to the amateur rider. I've seen loads of amateur riders buy these horses and then find themselves confined to the arena as they are too scared to take them out. No more hacking or having fun.
They where overawed with the beauty and elegance and thought these horses would take them to the top but then found they could not ride them so they got sold.
I do breed the odd WBs and have a couple of beauties at home. Light and elegant but descended from a well known to be extremely easy to ride and handle Swedish Warmblood.
ISH are the WB for the amateur rider. Quiet and sensible and do anything go anywhere horses.
Or find lines of WB that are renown for thier quiet temperaments.

Judith NZ
06-04-01, 04:58 AM
Actually I should also say. My aim is to cross the ISH with WBs. I've seen some examples of this cross and they are big powerful horses with exceptional movement and brilliant temperaments.

Autumn
06-04-01, 05:31 AM
Judith - I would be very interested in seeing a ISH / WB cross. I also have seen that the w/bloods are getting finer and finer.
One thing I like about w/b is there solid types and how they ooze power.

Judith NZ
06-04-01, 05:58 AM
I'll see if I can find a picture Autumn. We have a WB/ISH stallion standing over here. He is awesome. I am sure there is a picture of him somewhere on the net I'll have a look and post the link. I was turned on to the X when I had one send to me for agistment. Wow it was the most awesome mover I have seen in a horse for a long time and had an awesome temperament. It has just been broken in @ 3 1/2 and the owner told me she just got on it and rode it. My kind of horse:-) Its now out hacking on their farm like an old hand for a while before it starts it career as a showjumper. I told her it will be wasted as a showjumper (but thats her bag) and while it was at my place I had several people ask if they could buy her. (all dressage riders)
Be back when I find that picture.

Judith NZ
06-04-01, 06:27 AM
here we go Autumn. Not the best photo I'm afraid.
http://www.irishhorse.org.nz/homepage.htm
The Horse is Ballycotton.
I have a better picture on email so I will email it to you.
The breeder of Ballycotton is also crossing his ISH mares now with Corlando (Corlandus) and tells me that the cross is stunning and they are great movers and very athletic.

Judith NZ
06-04-01, 06:29 AM
oops when you go to that link press on studs and stallions and then go to Goldengrove Stud. That will find Ballycotton.

md
06-04-01, 10:38 AM
If you look back at Warmblood breeding there has been an infusion of TB blood for decades, for example Ladykiller, Precipitaion, Pik As,Cottage Son, The list goes on and on and on. Just the fashion has changed as it always does. And remember unlike alot of Australian breeders, Europe uses tried and tested TB, for ridability, soundness etc... (mind you my most ridable horse is a TB so what am I saying???) Re ISH, love the breed however they are not all quiet and trainable, one we had here was a nightmare, however others I have seen are lovely and their is always exceptions to the rule. It is a bit like saying all arabs are made or all TB's are hot.

Julie C
06-04-01, 10:50 AM
I couldn't resist - sorry -

can we call them "Irish Warmbloods" LOL

cheers,
Julie (breeder of "Arabian Warmbloods") hehe he

Jan Heine
06-04-01, 10:52 AM
Interesting that Judith has mentioned the cross of warmblood with Irish - the Irish Stallion inspections have this year approved a Cruising son who is out of a warmblood mare - apparently he is athletic, has scope to burn, rideability is exceptional and his trainability and brain are magic - all who have seen are impressed. I think that the warmbloods and the Irish horses needed an infusionof thoroughbred blood but it needs to be done carefully to ensure that we are not breeding huge strong horses with hot and fizzy temperaments more suited to the racetrack than the dressage or jumping arenas. We also need to ensure that we are not using t/bred lines which have some genetic weaknesses with direct regard to performance horses - we need our horses to be working until well into their late teens and so we need things like legs to hold up longer than 2 or 3 years - the average (and I mean average I do not mean exceptional) racehorse (I have been led to believe) is finished his career by latest 4 years old - our jumpers are just beginning their careers at that age - if that makes sense.

Judith NZ
06-04-01, 11:37 AM
Had an interesting chat to Paul Jan. He says to say hello to you. He agrees with me that you have the best example of a ISH in this part of the world in Celtic Blue Diamond. :-)

He told me that unbeknowst to alot of
people many WB lines actually already have ISH in them. He told me that his father exported 40 odd ISH mares to Europe to be used in the Westphalian breeding program.
I am very keen to see some of the progeny from his WB stallion out of Laughtons Legends mares. He tells me he has got some that will be much nicer than Ballycotton.
I can see that I need to organise a trip to Christchurch.

Georgia
06-04-01, 02:24 PM
Hi ??????. Never fear- there are still plenty of the old type warmbloods being bred and I think there always will be.

Jan Heine
06-04-01, 04:37 PM
Thanks for the nice words about Celtic Blue Diamond - yep Paul is very besotted by him - but Paul has some very fine stallions standing at his place also - really special and excellent lines and combinations of lines.
Well looks like I might make it back to NZ in the not too distant future - are you near Auckland by chance as that is where I have to go on business?

Judith NZ
06-04-01, 10:56 PM
Yes Jan I actually work at AKL Intl Airport. My place is 1/2 hour from the airport and 15 mins from downtown AKL.
Paul was impressed that I had a Sir Vigilant mare and said I should consider breeding my ISH mares to my WB colt as he considers the WB line that I have to be a great one and a great X with ISH. (That was until I told him that the boy is a half brother to my mares. *damn*)

Judith NZ
06-04-01, 10:57 PM
Can you squeeze CBD in your suitcase please :-)

LF
07-04-01, 12:16 AM
Judith - Ballycotton is just gorgeous. Ooo, just to die for! Being of short, well proportioned stature myself, and a tad on the nervous side, I have always had one eye out for another horse that is strong enough to carry me, dependable enough to cope with my nervousness (only at times), bold enough to go anywhere, and with movement that I can ride! This X sounds ideal. Do you know of any breeders here in Oz? And is Ballycotton obtainable on frozen semen? Sorry about all the questions but you have really got my interest pumping.....I would love a better pic if you have one...I'll add my eddress.

Autumn
07-04-01, 12:44 AM
Judith - thanks so much for the link - he certainly is a spectacular horse - I can see why people like him. Pity you didnt live a bit closer as I would come over for a 'real' look.

I have included my email so you can send me a better pic - ta.

The information posted in this thread about the intermixing of breeds is most interesting.

Bonnie
07-04-01, 12:51 AM
My interest is piqued too!

Hmmmm, Ive got a nice black wb mare Jan......... what is your web site addie again ?????????
:-) :-) :-)

Judith NZ
07-04-01, 01:18 AM
LF I am not sure if Ballycotton is available by frozen but let me tell you IF I was in Australia and was looking to do this kind of cross I would go no further than Jans Celtic Blue Diamond. Find youself a nice WB mare and send her to him that would be my advice.
WHEN!!!! :-) Jan gets around to organising it. I will be getting some of CBDs semen sent over here. He is a real beauty.

DO I get some commisison for saying this Jan :-)

Bonnie
07-04-01, 01:34 AM
*LOL* Judith! Great minds think alike! *LOL*

Jan Heine
07-04-01, 03:59 AM
You guys are being very very cheeky!And my web site is:

www.cyberhorse.net.au/celticwinners/

see ya there!!!! And don't forget there are TWO very special stallions there!

j
07-04-01, 04:07 AM
Seeing the last olympic horses,and the world equestrian games in Sweden it seems the european idea of a modern type wb is a bit different to the Australian idea.They are big horses,not very like tbs at all.I think their old type must have been truly ginormous,as even standing beside Rembrandt,one of the more quoted "modern types"by those australian breeders using part wb stallions over tb mares,well,Remi was much more substantial.Not a pretty horse either!
I guess it depends on what youre used to,but I for one would hate to see little tb joints and muscles bred too much into the wbs.Maybe it is that in photos you see a very well proportioned horse and dont see how large they are?A lot of their riders are very tall too!
I really agree with the comment about not wanting a big hot fizzy giant either,temperament is so important,and I do believe that in Europe far many more horses are culled due to deficiencies in this area than are in Australia.It seems a little bit that over here if it has some warmblood in it,no matter how unpleasant a horse it might be,the assumption is that it is worth a bomb!
I have one student on an arabian warmblood mare who is the horse from hell,it seems she has all the potential piggyness of a bad wb combined with the arabian stamina,boy does she go that extra mile to get her way :O
Another on a tb just off the track for one year who is a delight to work with due to his temperament,and is winning at whatever he tries.
Id rather have a good tb than a dodgy WB,though ive luckily got a couple of very nice big warmbloods of my own,thankfully with very nice temperaments.
Its a bit the wrong way round to add the TB via the mare in my opinion,id rather have more tb in the stallion and let the mare be more warmblood,as it is she who will influence the foal in its early days.
Just some thoughts,not to offer any offence,im certain a sensibly bred arabian wb is marvellous,and that the one my student has is a case of breeding a bad mare to an arabian for a relatively cheap service fee,the result is not great!Cheers,J

Judith NZ
07-04-01, 04:27 AM
Yes J. Breeding for temperament goes with saying but god how often does it happan that a mare is too nutty so it goes out into the Broodmare paddock. I had a TB mare come to agist at my place. She was a Novice eventer and as nutty as hell. As she was sooo hot the owner decided to quit her as a competition horse and offered her to me FREE as a broodmare. Needless to say I said Thanks but no thanks. Nice conformation and all that but temperament was very off. I would never breed from a mare with a suspect temperament. The last thing I want is a 16.3 ISH that is nuts!!! :-)

md
07-04-01, 10:35 AM
you naughty naughty girl you. Cheers

md
07-04-01, 10:39 AM
You hit on a good point, they vary rarely use TB mares overseas, it is normally TB stallion over wb mares, funny how in Australia we do it back to front, mind you it does show in the stock.

micarter
07-04-01, 11:29 AM
That probably is because we have more very nice quality TBs over here whereas they have fewer quality ones to choose from. Also we have fewer warmbloods to choose from, if you get my drift. Just a thought.

Judith NZ
07-04-01, 11:39 AM
Yes md micarter is correct. it has more to d with availability than anything. We still have the BEST TBs in the world in NZ and Australia.
Its just a case of using the right ones for breeding. Of course the TB stallions that are used in WB breeding programs are vry well selected and approved. It is a pity that more people are not more careful about what mares they use. Beleive you me there are plenty of WB mares out there too that would not be suitable to be bred from. Its not the TBs fault its the fault of the breeders not being selective.

small time breeder
07-04-01, 12:43 PM
Interesting thread I would just like to raise two points
1.When dismissing a Thoroughbred mare from your breeding program due to an unsuitable temprement sometimes it is worth giving the mares the benifit of the doubt as some herrific things happen to some horses in race training. I have seen pleasant youngsters go away for a race preperation and come back a danger to themselves and everybody else. Obviously this is a man made problem not a genetic one.
2.There are some wonderful WB horses out there who are out of TB's ( I beleive Gigilo and Bonfire are out of TB mares)and obviously there are some dogs out there who are out of TB mares so it is really worthwhile doing a bit of research and finding a stallion that combines well with TB's. I am always amazed how little thought some people put into breeding.

Judith NZ
07-04-01, 01:15 PM
Small time breeder You say that you should give a TB mare with a temperament problem the benefit of the doubt. Personally I would not take such a risk. If a horse can't standf up to the rigours of racing it is not going to stand up to competition and training stress either. Sure I know what you are saying that some are subjected to horrible things in racing but they are the minority. The majority that come out of racing stressed and nutty do so as their temeperament is not suited to stressful situations. There is a very good chance that the same young horse put into an eventing/competition barn would likely show similar traits of not being able to cope.
Personally I don't think it is worth the risk. I would only breed with mares that have solid temperaments. Ones that have come out of racing sane or proved that they can perform in the competition arena and stay sane. There are loads of nice TB mares out there to choose from. Why bother with those with suspect temperaments. Thats where so many breeders go wrong. Just not discerning enough.
I agree with you that few people put enough effort into choosing both mares and stallions and also the compatibility of lines. So many people just breed from that old mare that broke down or was too hot to ride and the cycle continues :-(

md (Guest)
10-04-01, 06:34 AM
Yes we do have fantastic TB's, bred for racing not performance. In Europe they are very careful about the rideablilty of the horse and don't just use anyold thing, no matter how stunning of the track. So many of our breeders breed their unrideable, unsound TB mare to Frozen and expect miracles. I really don't care what the breed is as long as it is suitable for the job and that when mated every effort is made to put the right stallion over the right mare.

Klaus (Guest)
10-04-01, 07:16 AM
I'm not sure many breeders/owners really understand the size and bone of the "modern" warmblood. If you look in many show rings you see basically TB and we think this is refined WB. At Sydney only the odd horse moved and generally the type was the TB way. The movement seemed to make little or no diffence in the result?
The associations seem to be looking for the lighter type of horse and this greatly effects the end product. Due to the large percentage of TB in our WB's already we need to not right off the "Older" type.
What we see as the Old type are in fact smaller and finer that what you see in Europe.

Jan Hei ne (Guest)
10-04-01, 08:21 AM
In Europe it appears to me (from my investigations) that they have been using t/bred blood but via th estallions - there are a few t/bred stallions registered in the main studbooks and most are performance bred t/breds - don't forget people that the t/breds we use here for breeeding are predominantly bred for 2 year old racing - and they are not always going to be suitable for breeding to warmblood lines - be they hannovarian, trakenner or even Irish - again it needs to be stressed that when breeding it is important to match the mare and the stallion and that match must also include what is "behind" both mare and stallion.

Patto
10-04-01, 10:08 AM
I personally prefer the slightly heavier type but it's good to have such a great range available to suit all tastes.

Craig (Guest)
10-04-01, 11:01 AM
I dont really care what type they are, its the ridability factor thats important.
Some of the heavier style horses though are such thick skinned clumpers you have to ride your ring out just to keep them going. But that could be a result of me mostly riding exracehorses were in comparison little effort is required to keep them going.