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Autumn
12-04-01, 05:13 AM
This page has a video clip of Anky riding a young horse - it can take a bit to load but is worth watching.

http://saddletude.com - choose the dressage channel then the Anky clip.

I would like any opinions please.

tm (Guest)
12-04-01, 10:45 AM
how do you make it run

Rosemary (Guest)
12-04-01, 12:36 PM
Autumn, this particular clip caused a huge furore a couple of months ago, here on Cyberhorse. It's taken at Sydney during the Olympics, and it is not a young horse. The horse is Idool, the reserve horse for the Dutch team. So he is already a Grand Prix horse.

I've just watched the first little bit of this particular clip, and recognise the background etc.

Jo Hinneman, who trained with Reiner Klimke (he is one of the riders on those magical tapes that Reiner did some years ago now) and then became assistant German coach until he was sacked because he was coaching Coby van Baalen, has said about Anky that she is perhaps the best rider in the world. One cannot criticise her because it would be like criticising the best motor racing driver in the world .. for not doing it totally by the book .. but being absolutely brilliant.

I don't mean we should "hero worship" Anky, but I do mean that we are of insufficient knowledge or ability ourselves to come half way to understanding how she is influencing that horse.

I don't mean to offend anybody by this post .. certainly that is not my wish .. but maybe out attitude towards those who are the best at what they do needs to be re-thought.

Ellen (Guest)
12-04-01, 02:24 PM
Rosemary, I can't see the video and I am no where near in the league of Anky. I think she is a great rider, but that doesn't mean that what she does can not be questioned. She is not perfect and gets criticized by many judges every time she enters the dressage arena. She doesn't score all 9's and 10's after all. My interest tends to be more the classical dressage, and the disconnection of the head and neck worries me. There is nothing wrong with discussing it, but it has been done all over the world ever since this video clip was put on the net.

Rosemary (Guest)
12-04-01, 02:52 PM
Ellen you can't see the video (your words) but the "disconnection" of the head and neck "worries" you??? (Also your words).

Meaning ............??

Nobody chopped off his head ... not while I was watching ..

From a previous forum discussion, Ellen, you said you would be at the judge's clinic at Werribee that was held immediately after the Dressage Festival, and you also said you would be at the ISSA Young Horse day.

So where were you?? I was walking around all day (both days) with my name plastered all across my front :D and you would have had every opportunity to make yourself known. Why didn't you??

Jomac
12-04-01, 11:21 PM
Yes I've seen this clip before when it was being discussed on an American forum. I'm not sure what you want opinions on but any excuse to watch a rider of this calibre is good enough for me. :-)
I gather by some of the comments, that some are critical of Anky's riding/training? Interesting - would love to hear more.
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Off the subject, Rosemary can I just ask what was the ISSA Young Horse Day you mentioned?

Rosemary (Guest)
13-04-01, 12:32 AM
Anky certainly is a brilliant rider .. her seat just doesn't come out of the saddle at all .. her legs just hang down .. to be able to sit a horse half as well would be the dream of many, I think.

Jomac, the ISSA young Horse show is well documented on The Virtual Equestrian, with lots of lovely photos that Berni has taken. There were "performance" classes for young showjumping horses and young dressage horses. We all had heaps of fun.

There will be another show later this year (waiting for conformation of a Werribee booking) and hopefully the Young dressage horse classes will be qualifiers for Dressage With the Stars. We're looking forward to this.

:-)

Autumn
13-04-01, 12:33 AM
thank you for all your thoughts so far. I am aware that this clip was seen by some a while ago but I have only recently seen it and thought that others may also like to see it.

I also believe that there is nothing wrong with making comments on other riders regardles of who they are. And remember I only asked for personal opinions which I think everyone is entitled too.
A.

Fiona in Tassie (Guest)
13-04-01, 12:42 AM
I too would like to know how to make the video run? I get as far as it bringing up the square in which to play the video, but nothing happens?

Opinion (Guest)
13-04-01, 12:46 AM
Maybe you can all make up your own minds when you see her in action at her Equitana clinic. I'm certainly going to be there with bells on!!

Jomac
13-04-01, 12:56 AM
Apologies to Autumn, but I'm not sure exactly you want our/my opinion on? I assumed it to be on Anky by reading the posts made previously, but were you after comments on the horses' movements? Idool is supposedly a difficult horse to ride, from comments I remember on the American forum, but it is probably a little unfair to judge him just from a training clip. However, there can be no argument about him being very much "on the aids." He is supposed to be quite strong willed and yet this clip shows you don't have to be strong in return to get results. Even when he was offered the longer rein at walk, he was still forward and relaxed.

I don't compete at FEI level but the work shown looked regular, forward and quite correct in my humble eyes. :-)

ironpony (Guest)
13-04-01, 02:01 AM
Jomac, your comments about Idool are interesting. But I beg to differ on your observation that "you don't have to be strong in return". There are points were Anky definately sets her hand and drives her seat forward into this holding hand - a strong bracing action.

To me, the horse looks like he is heavily into her hand and she is riding strongly against this. She looks like she is trying to hold him together into a posture of submission. At times he attempts to strongly display his displeasure and discomfort with the process, but cannot succeed because of the head/neck posture.

but then, I am a mere bush scrubber mortal (and Australian at that, so double the effect)lol!! I wouldn't like to see her put that much pressure on my horses - I think it would truly break their spirit, which is the very opposite of what riding and dressage is all about.

I am very keen to compare this footage (as a 'one-off' incident)with her seminar and publicly announced approach at Equitana.

Anna_TAS (Guest)
13-04-01, 02:19 AM
Yeah me too!!!!
I can't get it to work either.

Jomac
13-04-01, 02:21 AM
Ironpony, it's funny but when I wrote my reply I changed it heaps of times because i was trying to say it the "right way." There seemed to be a certain amount of friction developing early on, and I didn't want to add to it. :-)

By referring to "strong", I meant more a brute force strong, which I have seen some people use on horses who are a resistant. You will notice Anky doing quite a few obvious half halts in this clip where the viewers can't see why, but she obviously felt him dropping out, or about to drop out somewhere. I'm not sure I agree about Idool being heavy in her hand as when he is offered the rein, he doesn't fall away. (I see his resistance more that he is being made to use himself in the base of his neck to get him totally through.)

I totally agree that dressage should allow the horse to retain his spirit and be as one with his rider, but for the professionals like Anky in the "real world" they have a job to do, and sometimes, the horse just doesn't want to play.

Autumn
13-04-01, 02:26 AM
Do you have the plug-in 'quick time' ? which is needed to make it run. It also took a fair while to load on my pc at work - and we have a LAN not a modem - so it may take a longer to load for you.

I kept pressing the start button and it played what it had loaded. The clip itselfs runs for a few minutes.
A.

Autumn
13-04-01, 02:28 AM
Im off to see her an Equitana too - cant wait!!! Have already got tickets.
A.

Bonnie (Guest)
13-04-01, 02:29 AM
Weelllll!....... You pair insist on living in Tasmania! :o DO you really expect your computers to work properly down there??? :-) :-) :-) *as she heads for cover*

ironpony (Guest)
13-04-01, 03:26 AM
I agree Jomac, that it can be difficult at times to get the phrasing just right!! lol And I have noticed that on teh UDBB manners are very much to the fore whereas on CH the atmosphere has been known to deteriorate very rapidly!!

Interesting that you see his resistance at the base of his neck. I see it in not coming through from behind enough - his croup is frequently high in the passage/piaffe, indicating resistance for whatever reason.

You say that when Anky gives the rein, Idool doesn't fall away - not sure what you mean - do you mean doesnt fall onto the forehand??? or doesnt stretch away (which is about the same as falling onto the forehand!!) If he has been using himself properly then he shouldnt collapse onto the forehand immediately, but all horses do eventually if left off the rein long enough!

Ultimately, it comes down to the technique that is required at that precise moment for that horse and situation. It would be interesting to know what Anky was trying to acheive. You could not ride every horse all the time like this. It makes my neck hurt just watching tho!!!

The video reminds me of those illicit videos of say Nicole Kidman showering etc that get spun around the world via the web.

Fiona in Tassie (Guest)
13-04-01, 04:21 AM
Well, that's true Bonnie, and I wasn't sure which of the 2 monitors to watch it on either... :-)

Autumn
13-04-01, 05:14 AM
You guys just crack me up ROTFLMAO
A.

Jomac
13-04-01, 05:47 AM
Goodness, I'm not trying to turn this into a Jo MacDonald thread, but I'll just quickly answer Ironpony here.

I didn't say I saw Idool's resistence at the base of his neck. The reason he is resisting, is training deep like this with a horse of this level is like the final touches to getting the lift required for the passage/piaffe work. Anky is making him go really deep by stretching and using ALL the topline muscles. With his normal work, he is probably quite clever and gives a good feeling without really being through and blocks himself through the muscles in the base of his neck - a lot of horses do this. Once he gives totally through this area, he will really lift in front, the hindquarters will be really under him, and the piaffe will quite free. Note, she didn't do much piaffe with him and when she did, she allowed his head to come up so there was no pressure on him.

And no, you don't ride like this all the time, and Anky certainly wouldn't. It's one part of the gymnastic and athletic work done in a training program, obviously starting off far easier and building up as needed.

Ellen (Guest)
13-04-01, 07:27 AM
Sorry, have been too busy to play ;-) I was at the judges clinic, but I didn't see you. No talk about deep though, although dr. Mundi didn't think that behind the vertical was such a problem as long as everything else was correct, which some of the judges in a private discussion with me later disagreed with. I was at the ISSA show to, but only in the morning, helping a friend. I had a riding lesson in the afternoon that I didn't want to cancel. I saw lots of people with name tags, but not you (I certainly looked, because I would really like to meet you).

Unfortunately I can't see this specific video, but I am very familiar with the deep riding. I have seen it here and overseas, and I have discussed it with many people. This video has been discussed on many international dressage lists, so I am familiar with comments from people in favour and against. I know of some of the people that didn't like it how they think of correct dressage in general and I largely agree with them on many subjects. I didn't even say I hated it or it is all wrong, just that it worries me, and that it does. Reading over your post again, surely you are familiar with the concept of 'disconnection of head and neck'?