View Full Version : Stop button

JH (Guest)
19-04-01, 06:22 AM
Have recently been fortunate enough to be given a 3 year old, recently broken in warmblood. However our stop button when going is not too good! Long story but can't speak to the person who "broke him in".
Since I've had him he has improved heaps, he now stands when being mounted, saddled etc.
My problem is stopping. When he is warmed up and relaxed, he is very responsive to my seat and will halt with almost the mere thought (I'm sure they must have ESP!), however when not relaxed he doesn't always want to halt when I do.
Have one person telling me to almost 'jab' in the mouth and make him stop as soon as told (event rider), and me not agreeing.
Not 'jabbing' but asking for halt with firm squeeze on reins and releasing as soon as he stops, even just before, seems to be working but very slowly, ie stop time becoming shorter.

Am very interested to hear ideas from out there.
I've always had thoroughbreds before so realize getting used to something that hasn't raced and is warmblood is different (hopefully easier!)

Sorry this is so long, hope it makes sense.

rappie (Guest)
19-04-01, 06:45 AM
i was having a few ignorance problems with my boy, leaning when you ask for halt and it just doesnt happen, head tossing pulling all that sort of stuff....my instructor suggested "three half halg halts"

think about halting...plan it a little
start sitting deeper, and still
one squeeze per stride for 3 strides, a little one, a bigger one, then a little one....
then just do nothing.
if you dont get a halt ask them to move forward and try again, like youve been doing, the halt doesnt have to be instant.

i've been doing this for a week and the difference is amazing, it really is simple and if you keep doing it, it happens quickly.....
if you need to the middle squeeze can get quite strong, just make sure it has soft edges and isnt a jab....but it sounds like you already know that :)

Shahron (Guest)
19-04-01, 07:28 AM
Great to read or listen/watch Andrew McLean on this subject.

Sounds like you're on the right track JH, more repitions will get there but, you can also try sharpening him to the turn first. So pull rein to the left, only release when right leg crosses over left, then the other way so that the horse yields to both left and right reins. When you pull on both, the horse yeilds immediately to the halt. It's quite an amazing result.

Good luck.

JH (Guest)
19-04-01, 07:37 AM
Am heading off to ride now so will work more on the turns, would love lesson with Andrew, read whatever I can get hands on of his, just too broke to go for lesson with 2 to feed! Just seem to be in stuck/plateau phase after improving rapidly. Bit worried about what Rappie says as isn't that rewarding him by releasing half halt before he has actually stopped?

rappie (Guest)
19-04-01, 07:55 AM
sorry - wasnt exaclty concentrating when i was writing that.....so ill muddle through it again.

what i meant was the halt doesnt need to be the instant you give the aid, at least the first couple of times....say from a walk give them a 2-3 steps to actually do it...decreasing your lenience as you go on.

i dont know how technically inaccurate this is - but ill give my boy as an example. Going trot trot trot around the arena...head pulling sideways...being an emu....go for 3 squeezes...head straightened in "what - you talking to me" fashion, more balanced trot, still not really paying attention.

asking for halt, i sat, squeezed with fairly strong middle one... then sat still, legs hugging, not moving with the trot..he noticed the half halts but didnt pay much attention...repeat the rein aid, seat still not moving, he's gone on for a few strides ("she's trying to tell me something *shrug*) then gone "hey, youre not doing anything, what do i do" and then walked. Enter big pats. Repeated the process much more successfully the next time.

i guess the release is techically giving a reward, and the situation may not be the same as yours, but i wasnt about to start a physical battle with my boy and force him to stop when he decided he was going to tank along. He got cocky about thinking he knew what he was doing , then when there was no guidance he realised i was trying to tell him something. It was a bit of an ego deflater for him.

so i dont know if ive dug myself a deeper hole....but hey :)

Hunter (Guest)
19-04-01, 09:59 AM
When I rode my sister's western trained horse I was so impressed by it's brakes that I wanted to know how it was done. I got a book from the library and I don't know if this is universal, but this book said to make every stop a rein back for a while. Then make some (at random) of your stops into rein backs. The horse anticipates the rein back and therefore stops very promptly. I've tried it and it works. It does not make the horse step back every time you halt it, and on my hunter I got as far as halt from canter....she had previously bolted with me due to faulty brakes.

19-04-01, 10:20 AM
This is what I do too. Make every halt then rein back. Also give in stages. ie teach them that if they just slow down a little they will get a release. (this is for the ones who are just not getting it. They don't even seem to realise that the pressure will be released if they decrease the pace or stop. No one has ever taught them that the pressure on their mouth will go away if they slow down or stop.)
So cantering along, ask for slower, when you get it release. then ask for slower again, you may then get a fast trot, release then ask for slower again, get a steady trot.Ask again get a slower trot, release, ask walk, release, ask walk slower, release, ask halt, release, ask rein back, release.
So to start with give them plenty of time to realise it is the decrease in pace that gets the release. Also remember DONT PULL, HOLD. Take the firmness you need to slow the pace and hold, do not keep pulling. Hold and Release as you get the response.
:* hope this helps.

19-04-01, 10:28 AM
yes....this is what i meant...see look here.....except when i do 3 it gives me something to count.......havent tried the rein back bit though

19-04-01, 10:55 AM
I am a little flabbergasted here, so I'm going to ask the question or questions to get something clarified.

there have been suggestions to make the horse halt and then rein back - some say rein back sometimes, someone said rein back every time.

Could these people explain:

1. What aids they use for these movements.

2. When they don't do the reinback straight after halt, what do they do.

3. When the horse has halted and reined back, what the next movement is after that.

The reason I'm so flabbergasted, is rein back is actually a forward movement, (well, it's supposed to be if ridden correctly) so I don't understand how teaching the hardest forward movement helps a horse when you're supposed to be teaching them to stop.

19-04-01, 11:16 AM
This is a very basic rein back. The only requirement is that the horse does it in a two beat movement(diagonal pairs) you don't need the collection you are looking for in pure dressage. However, it does actually help engage the horse a little more, bring his hindquarters under.
1. we are talking very basic remedial work.
we are just helping the horse understand the very basic stop response. For more info read Andrew Macleans articles in THM.
2. If you don't rein back straight away after the halt, well you can just stand there for 10 sec. or 10 mins if you like, then away you go again. Of course once the horse understands the stop response you would start to do stop, go transitions. Walk to halt to walk. trot to halt to trot etc.
3. After you finish rein back you allow the horse to settle and when you are ready go forward to walk, trot, canter.
I know where you are coming from Jomac, but this poor horse does not understand the most basic of aids so you cannot then use leg and hand together and confuse it even more!
Just a question. Can you tell me of any movement in dressage which is not essentially a forward movement?
What about in western?

19-04-01, 11:58 AM
Thanks for your reply Mi Carter.

One of the concerns I had when reading this was I knew the level of horse being referred to, was not overly experienced. So what aids do you use for the halt followed by rein back? As you said, the horse doesn't understand the most basic of aids, so do you just pull it backwards with your hand until it stops, and then pull it backwards some more until it steps back?

I agree with Sharon's suggestions re the "tune up" with the turn aids - then I follow it through at walk with asking for halt via a turn around the forehand. The horse is not allowed to halt until he gives through the jaw and he learns to soften and just brings the quarters under and halts.

All the performed dressage movements are foward - even piaffe which is certainly more "up" than horizontal, but still forward. I don't anything about western work at all.

19-04-01, 12:02 PM
Being a Western showie I'm probable leaving myself wide open for for the english people to slam, but our western horses stop unreal.
Keep it basic, the horse has got to WANT to stop. The other thing is they learn by repetition, so to start we often use a verbal word like whoa or ho, with the aid that you are teaching them to stop with(whether it be taking up the rein and sqeezing or whatever).We use the back up, the basic of it as some other posts said, so that when they stop they stop with their hind under them aticipating a back up, but dont let them back up unless you have asked for it. This way they dont just stop and immediately back. After a while they associate word and actions, and you can stop using the verbal.Reward the halt with letting them stand for a few seconds/minute before asking them to go again.
This is the basic everyday thing we use until we get the to the point of when we drop our weight back in the saddle the horse will prepare for a stop. Only need to look at reiners, with no slack taken up in the rein, only the rider sitting back on his bum.
I probably havnt explained it quite right, but I understand it ( I'm Blonde):D
Remember - Keep it simple, repetition, and reward.

19-04-01, 12:08 PM
Jomac, in this instance I was merely trying to help someone with a specific problem in a way they might understand. If I now tell you what I would do and have done myself with retraining horses you may be even more flabbergasted.
In the instance of a horse not wanting to stop, I would in fact take the fight right out of it and ride him preferably in canter in a 4 leaf clover pattern always turning to the same direction. After a while the horse, (who is on a loose rein and often in a halter with one rein) is beginning to say, well bugger me she isn't pulling on my mouth and asking me to stop. Then he says God this is boring as hell, then he says I wonder if I can stop yet. Then I say no, please keep going. The horse then says look here I really want to stop, and I say no just a little longer.
Then I look for the anchor, say X. and sit down and stop riding and he stops. We stand there for a long time in normal peoples speach, completely relaxed, then off we go again on the other rein. within a couple laps hes asking for the stop again,after a bit I give it to him. We stand for a while and then I get off and we go and play a game like lie down on the ground or squeeze under the orange plastic.
I do this every day for the next week each session gets shorter until every time I ride him he is aware of me allowing him to stop. (Of course then you must also make sure the go button works well, but that is another story.)

Rosemary (Guest)
19-04-01, 12:24 PM
I, too, would like to know just exactly how you can get a horse to understand the "stop button" better by getting him to rein back when he has finally stopped. What's in it for him?? In my funny old way, I'd have thought that this is kind of a punishment ... you've stopped, now you'll go backwards ...?? Surely you reward the stop??? It quite probably works in an advanced level dressage horse who's maybe trying to rush off a little ... they've had the training to associate the ideas ... but a 3 year old baby???

And I'd seriously love to know how the hell you get your 3 year old warmblood to rein back .. when he doesn't even fully understand the aids to stop ... short of inciting to rear, or jumping off and pushing him in the chest.

What are your aids??

19-04-01, 12:27 PM
Oh Dear, just read my posts and I'm getting all preachy again!
I promised myself I wouldn't do that. :-(

19-04-01, 12:28 PM
Oh Mi Carter, now I'm even more confused.

On your first post you said "This is what I do too. Make every halt and then rein back." Yet the technique above is not like that at all. (And of the two, I certainly prefer your second one.)

Please dont get me wrong - I'm not looking for a heated debate on this. Obviously you have done a lot of retraining and riding, but then, I'm no slouch either. :-)

19-04-01, 12:33 PM
Lol Rosemary, jumping off and pushing him in the chest! Indeed!
That is what I already would have done a couple of weeks before. However to address your questions and Jomacs. Firstly I did say hold not pull, there i a big difference there. Holding encourages the relaxation of the jaw or more so the release does.
So what reward does the horse get for stopping? It is the release. The rein back is just a continuation of the process. After all is not the halt essentially a forward movement and should not all transitions be forward?

19-04-01, 12:43 PM
Sorry for the confusion. I do do both methods, however in most cases prefer to do the second one first.
To clarify the aids: I sit and merely hold until the horse yeilds the jaw and moves backwards, to start with I will reward even a sway backwards, As I reward a slight decrease in pace. At no time do I put legs on. That comes later as collection is achieved.
So Jomac, as you are no slouch ;-) what would you do in this situation?

19-04-01, 12:50 PM
Refer to post 10.

JH (Guest)
19-04-01, 01:03 PM
Well have just got back from the horses, thanks for all the replies. Shahron if you are there, I tried what you were saying, re turns, do you mean really sharp turns to get the leg crossover? At walk or what, we don't have a problem with turning.
The only transition we have a problem with is walk to halt, all others are really good for where we're at.

How soon should aids become used together, I mean at the moment I'm just trying to keep everything basic as figure need to polish up stop first!!

Shahron, when do you come back? We might have to come for a visit, hope all is going well.

Rosemary (Guest)
19-04-01, 01:06 PM
Oh goodness, Jomac ... (nice to meet you .. :-)) .. I have to say I agree with you ... but Micarter ... what are you saying?? The question has been asked .. how do you achieve the reinback .. on a young horse who doesn't understand the "stop" button... So now you'd have "weeks before" jumped off and pushed him backwards ... LOL

Seriously, have you ever ridden a young horse of any calibre??

Jomac, I gather from your posts you have had some experience with young warmblood horses .. Can you imagine what would happen if you just sat there and held and held and held until your 3 year old (or 13 year old) warmblood finally decided to do something?? And can you imagine what he'd do??

Sorry, Micarter ... you've just been reared over backwards with and squashed dead.


19-04-01, 01:07 PM
oh yes Jomac that sounds nice too. One rein stops basically. Well i'd have done that before I'd done the canter in 4 leaf clover pattern. So I guess basically I need to write a book! If I'm to start from scratch Lol.
In my first post I was just trying to explain it from the point of view I had when I used to get this problem years ago. It's a Tom Roberts (you know the Aussie guy) method and is described quite often in his books. Before I discovered an even more natural way I used to mainly use Tom Roberts and as I understand it it is what Andrew Maclean advocates as well but I may be wrong in my understanding. I think it is still quite valid and usable to the average person.
I never get the stop button problem anymore because I start at the beginning in ground school with every horse I work with and work my way through. I still do each of these things though. Call them steps, methods, whatever, anything that helps the horse understand the aids better is good.

19-04-01, 01:14 PM
Really Rosemary there is no need to be insulting.
If your warmblood, no matter what age, would rear up if a direct rein pressure (not pulling) were applied to his mouth, then there is something lacking in your preparation. Yes I have re-educated horses like that, because their riders had applied force with their legs and hands and taught the horse to rear. Honestly it is very simple (the rein back I mean).
BTW Rosemary, why do I threaten you so much, can't we just have a nice discussion as Jomac and I have been.

JH (Guest)
19-04-01, 01:27 PM
Micarter I don't think Rosemary is threatened by you, she's probably worried I'm going to take your advice and start doing reinbacks with my baby. No way. The horse just has to learn to halt from the reins. He will halt from my seat when calm but I want a respected button for those times that it is needed.

Tonight he coped with rain on the indoor roof and having the lights on for the first time and a little kid on a little grey pony. All firsts, I'm not about to fry his brain with a rein back which would undoubtedly end up with a rear and confused baby.

19-04-01, 01:37 PM
Seriously now, what is the dressage persons problem with doing a basic rein back?
I really want to know Rosemary?
What is it about the rein back that you think it will ruin in your horse?

JH (Guest)
19-04-01, 01:46 PM
Please don't try to raz up drama Micarter, the horse is a baby needs basics and too soon for rein back. Needs really good foundations for which I am asking for help, initially the aids need to be very distinct so as not to confuse.
I would really love to hear from Rosemary as I think she may be more on my wavelength, please don't scare her off!!

Susan (Guest)
19-04-01, 02:05 PM
The same way you teach anything else......repitition, and stick to the one method that you choose and one step at a time.

19-04-01, 02:09 PM
I'm not trying to scare her off, I really want to know. I must be missing something here and I want to know why backing up a young horse is going to do so much damage as I teach this to all my baby horses and If I want to DO dressage, which I do, I want to know why I shouldn't back up a baby horse and Rosemary seems to know why and I would be very honoured if she would tell me. :D

19-04-01, 02:13 PM
This is my last post on this topic. If I'm sick of seeing my own name here over and over again, I'm sure everyone else is too.

Mi Carter, maybe I am a slouch after all. I will never presume to know enough to write a book. :-) Maybe I should leave all this stuff to people like you and Horseproblems.

And although you asked Rosemary, I am very much a dressage person, but don't ask for reinback with my horses until they have a good understanding of the aids. Perhaps that was why I was so shocked at this being suggested as a way of teaching halt to a green 3 yo.

eMa (Guest)
19-04-01, 06:57 PM
another thing that you could try that worked well with my young cleveland cross.. was when you put the halt aid on, if the horse locks on, ignores you, circle off till they give then go straight again..and ask again.. with repetition i found that the horse then stops on the first halt squeeze aid as they stop going against the hand..

this is a way to do it without confrontation, especially if the horse is already tense

oh i dont mean a tight spinny circle.. maybe 10m or less assuming you are walking into halt..

good luck! sounds like you are doing ok to me :)

DG (Guest)
19-04-01, 11:52 PM
I agree, what is so wrong with teaching babies to back up, it should be started on along with everything else.
Seriously, and dont go no way-yuk, get hold of a good western trainers book.( Western horses use the backup in comps and are masters at it) They take all the technical out of the job and make it all simple. Horses dont understand 3,4,5 commands at once when learning. We can all get a little out of each different disciplin, just because it western, doesnt mean it wont work on dressage horses.
Same thing over and over, dont deviate. Always reward!!!
Dont make him stop because he's tired, make him WANT to stop. Mine will drop thru the ground when I ask them to stop, no pulling.

eMa (Guest)
20-04-01, 12:01 AM
please correct me if i am wrong..but arent western horses trained to want to stop, and dressage horses have the desire to go forward nutured and encouraged above most else?

isnt a western reinback different to what is required in dressage? western horses seem to drag their feet back with no distinct pairing... or have i just been watching inferior trained horses?

and arent western horses trained to back off the contact at all costs? where as a dressage horse has to accept a stronger contact?

not picking on anyone here.. just curious :-)

20-04-01, 12:16 AM
OK, Ill risk joining this discussion, but please believe me this is pure speculation. I am wondering whether one of the reasons the reinback works is one of balance. Is it possible that the horse that won't stop, cant stop, cause he's traveling so heavilly on the forehand, pure gravity keeps him changing forward for those few extra paces, like running down a hill. Perhaps this is why the stop is difficult when he's more tense, because he's more hollow, and therefore trailing his quaters, with more weight on the shoulders, (I imagine there is also a little bit more to it, like a lack of concerntration etc as well) However, if you ask for halt-reinback, (I have no intention of discussing the appropriateness of the reinback in the young horse, nor the aids) eventually the horse will anticipate the comming reinback, by putting his quaters underneath him (other wise he cant execute what he knows is coming) of course, this will improve the horses capacity to halt, it is kind of explanatory, like using lots of transitions to engage the quaters.
Ok, ducking for cover now.

Hunter (Guest)
20-04-01, 01:53 AM
I feel I should hold my hat up on a stick and see if it gets shot at before I poke my head up.....When I work my "babies" on the ground I teach them to walk forwards, stop, yield both ways, and back up. For submission, obedience, and just purely in case I want to shift them (ie off my foot). Eventually when I get on them I keep everything the same (same verbal commands as well). Go, stop, turn both ways, and back up....back up so I can open a tricky gate, so I can back away from something that's moving at us and shouldn't be (most recently another horse's bum with a red ribbon on it!). I don't haul them back, I don't school it to dressage perfection, I rarely ask more than a couple of steps. I lighten my seat, ask for forward, into a lightly closed contact, and I say back which they recognise. Then I let them figure it out...half a step gets them release, a neck rub and verbal praise. Gently does it, no pressure. Seems ok to me. I then ride them forwards. It would have to be done a lot to ruin their "forwards" I think. It can then be used to sharpen the halt...If needs be. I don't think of riding it as Stop. Wait. Rein back. I think of it as one smooth forward movement...a forward walk, forward into halt and smoothly roll that forward motion backwards then encourage it forwards and then praise and relax; movement over; good horse. Am I truly doing a Bad Thing? I would rather keep my halt and my turns seperate in the horse's mind at this early stage so don't really want to use a turn to sharpen my halt. And with our big youngsters on our hard ground I can't see myself doing any clover-leaf canter work either, though I can see that both of these would work, for different reasons. Fascinating discussion anyway and I shall now beat a zig-zag retreat, ducking from boulder to boulder.......

Shahron (Guest)
20-04-01, 07:53 AM
Hi JH,
Yes, just the shoulder over kind of stuff. Ask Mary L next time you see at at WEC - it's an Andrew thing - works like a charm. But keep going, sounds like you're on track anyway. I'll be back for Melbourne 3DE so I'll see you at the bar.

To Rosemary, you know that time I rode Toby, I actually did a few stop/backwards moves (only one step) when he wanted to run off a bit sometimes. Remember, when I thought he was barging through my hand or running a bit fast, I stopped and made him take one step back - but it's kind of a smooth 'all-in-one' kind of a movement. Remember too I did the 'reward the attempt' method as well.
I think micarter is on the right track, he/she just gets it a bit balls'ed up when explaining it at first ;-) . (I know what that's like!).

To micarter, I would only add caution that in the wrong hands, this method of teaching halt is really dangerous as Rosemary correctly warns. Sometimes, things I would do myself I don't necessarily tell other people to do on a public forum because they can go a little wrong if misunderstood - the written word is so inadequate sometimes. I'm not perfect at this but I always try to break down what I'm saying to infinite detail first so that hopefully, you wont be misconstrued - of course we all are misinterpreted regularly; c'est la vie..... :)

20-04-01, 10:06 AM
Yep exactly, as the last 2 posts have mentioned. The back up will have your horses hindquarter engaged and waiting for the halt and back up. The verbal also helps really good, for reinforcing.

Caitlin (Guest)
20-04-01, 11:38 AM
I was taught that when you ask initially for the stop/back-up as well as asking with the hands you squeeze with the upper thighs and use a voice command such as whoa or ayy. As western showies don't have contact with the mouth this is how we cue the horse to stop.It is also part of the cue for downward transitions.After repitition all you have to do is squeeze and like DG says, lean back in the saddle and prepare for the STOP.The horse should back up until you release the squeeze. It only took my horse 45 minutes to learn this.Then I was able to trot and lope with my hands on my head and as soon as I squeezed and asked with my voice I got a beautiful stop.

cgh (Guest)
20-04-01, 02:00 PM
AHA! You said pretty much what I was going to say :P I wouldn't call myself a trainer, so I'll only comment on training methods I've been taught; firstly Steve Brady. He teaches all his horses to lead forwards, sideways and backwards before they are ridden at all. he teaches the groundword skills in his schools also, which I attend regularly. from what I understand, it's an important stage in teaching a horse to move off pressure, either from a hand or a whip for in-hand work, or off the leg when being ridden. A rein back is achieved in hand by teaching the horse to respect your body space, then standing at their head on the near-side, asking for a "backward feel" with one hand just behind the bit. I stress no pulling. If the horse moves AT ALL backwards he is rewarded by release on the rein. So, it's behavioural training - discomfort - comfort.

Under saddle with a green horse the same principle applies. The horse does not have to display impulsion in the same way that the dressage movement calls for, but should be attentive to the aids of seat, leg, hand, - in that order.

As far as I can see, it's a very important "button" to have on your horse, whatever age they are - I ride a 2 year old, and you can be sure he knows how to back up. OK I do ASH training, but it's all pretty much the same at the basic level. I think the crucial word here is "feel". You can teach a horse to back off a holding contact without rearing if you have "feel". Not saying I've got it, but I've seen people who have and it works.

Lastly, Hunter, I think you're right about the rein back sharpening the halts - it encourages them to halt softly and use their back end. They don't anticipate if you vary the exercises. Also, because they are through with their back end after the halt, I usually get a really nice upward transition when I ask the hoss to move off. It certainly doesn't take away the "forward".

Hunter (Guest)
20-04-01, 09:58 PM
Seeing as we've got some Western riders in here could I ask a question? As I posted waaay back, I was really impressed with my sister's Western trained horse's stop. All I did was sit my weight back and say whoa. But I found it hard to ride, kept having to disentangle my intestines from the saddle horn....what was I doing wrong??

DG (Guest)
21-04-01, 12:17 AM
Hey hunter we've all done that at some stage, with an over enthusiastic(sp?) stop!!!
You basically have to sit your weight back, lean back slightly in fact and stay in that position until the stop has been executed to the end.
You do become accustomed to it, and it just comes naturally then to balance yourself ready for that sudden stop, and your natural flight still going forward. Just lean back.
Maybe someone else can explain it better than this.

Jules P (Guest)
21-04-01, 01:11 AM
Thought I would try this halt to rein-back to sharpen up my halts last night. I watched Steve Brady demonstrate it the other month at Glenbrae. It worked rather well! At no stage did neddy try to go into a back when I hadn't asked for it. I guess the trick is to put normal halts inbetween the halt rein-backs. Another useful training tool. :-)

Caitlin (Guest)
21-04-01, 09:04 AM
Hunter, do as DG says but put your legs forward.After riding english for so long it took me ages to sit "western" stops.The first western discipline I learnt was breakaway (calf)roping and with that you have to stop dead from a gallop!I find my show horses stops easy-as compared to my rope horses'.

21-04-01, 12:48 PM
Dear Hunter,

The worse thing about those western saddles is leaning forward as you dismount. It doesn't pay if you are a female as there is nothing worse than trying to dislodge a lady hung up by her bra on the horn!!! Ever seen it?

Rosemary (Guest)
21-04-01, 01:27 PM
Nothing worse, HP??? I don't believe it!! From what I've learnt from you over the last couple of months, this would be a task you would thoroughly enjoy ...


21-04-01, 02:01 PM
I thought the EFA were safety first? Got to look after your saddle!!

22-04-01, 03:45 AM
I take your point Shahron and will endevour to go back to the beginning each time I answer and be as clear and precise as possible. I really don't mind people questioning me, it helps me learn too. One of my students continually questions everything I say, boy does she make me think! I believe I have learnt as much from her as she has from me.