PDA

View Full Version : SHOWING IMPROVEMENTS



Esta (Guest)
19-04-01, 03:18 PM
How are we going to improve the sport of showing? After watching at Sydney and many other shows it seems that there is never anyone saying anything nice it is all bitching about so and so who is a crooked judge and dopes their horses. How can we stop the cheating? Doping and Bitching? Why can some horses win when they work as well as when they don't?

showgirl (Guest)
20-04-01, 04:00 AM
Well I would really love the judges to have a microphone and to give their reasons for placing, and not just the piss-weak, 'this is the horse I preferred on the day'. They must have a reason for why it was their preferred horse, even if it is 'because I prefer bays'. If there was more justification perhaps there would be less bitching? Then again, bitching occurs in all sports, it is human nature.

Autumn
20-04-01, 04:06 AM
I would like to see the judges try a scoring system like dressage - Im not a showie at all, but this may be a step in the right direction.
A.

Neenza (Guest)
20-04-01, 05:23 AM
i think justification is a good idea, such as they do in the cattle ring. it would expose the people trying to rig the system. this would be good at larger shows such as HOTYs and Royals

skeeta (Guest)
20-04-01, 05:47 AM
A microphone may be good, but beware you may not like the answer you are given .
I myself often use the phrase "I just prefer the other horse"just to save the peoples feelings, as they love there own horse and can not often see its faults.
would you like to have your horses faults blasted over the show grounds? maybe another judge has not picked up your horses faults !!! be sure they will the next time they judge you! so I would say no to microphones.
But please please please remember why you are there, it is to have some fun and remember it is only one persons opinion if you love your horse do you realy care what anyone else thinks?
anyway good hacking.

Tracey (Guest)
20-04-01, 06:25 AM
I think that the microphone would be a great idea we have stud cattle as well as hacks and all judges are requested to tell the spectators and exhibitors the reason why they choose the cattle that they did, they do not have to be mean to the owners and their cattle they just give constructive reasons for there decisions. As a competetor in the hack ring it is hard to understand why horses go above you when they have played up and your horse has worked perfectly a reason for this may could be good.

buckskinremi
20-04-01, 06:37 AM
I agree with the above maybe they should judge like the cattle ring. When I first heard the cattle judging I laughed but now I am a horse showy I reckon it is a great idea.
I would of loved to hear what the judge was saying about my little precious at the Royal this year -lol
I can just imagine she was actually praying he'd go home!!! lol

NAT (Guest)
20-04-01, 08:08 AM
This topic has been thrown around for many years with no positive outcome as yet. Judging is a thankless job because there is only one winner and about thirty losers (loose term only). I think that when we choose to partake in a sport such as ours we must do so with the knowledge that the person in the middle has a personal criteria for which our horse may or may not adhere to.

We have global criteria for example a riding pony judge would look for such and such and a Hunter pony judge may look for this and that, but within each criteria, personal choice plays an important role.

That is what makes showing what it is. We as exhibitors know what the judge is generally looking for (four legs and a tail), and the unspoken criteria is what makes it intereting. I myself prefer finer types. People who choose to show under me do so knowing this from observation of previous experiences.

Judges in regional (and metro) areas are so scarce and often relucant to judge (as we are also competitors, instructors and mentors), that we can'r afford to slam their decisions.

That is why Agriculture and Hack Societies have the option of selecting judges from a list, thus the judges are accountab;le to a larger body for any unprofessional appearances. These judges are also accepted because of past exhibiting performances and exam knowledge.

It is true that we need to make some changes at larger shows not only for the competitors but for the spectators. A microphone run down of the class and the positive aspects of each horse would be excellent. NOTE ONLY POSITIVE COMMENTS. Even a scoring system would be good. We have been using such a system for feature hack classes at our Regional Hack Association Shows. It has proved not only successful but entertaining.

I don't believe that having more than one judge would be appropriate. We are too under resourced as it is. As for keeping the judging fair, well then lets increase the number of judges to pick from. Lets encourage our young riders to have a go. While ever the pickings are small, then the same judges will select the same horses all the time. Yes, I judge you one weekend and you judge me the next does go on, so lets prevent it by increasing the number of willing judges. Fresh faces with fresh ideas and opinions, changing with the times as we hope our sport in doing.

Good luck and happy showing

JK (Guest)
20-04-01, 08:25 AM
I also agree with having the judges comment on classes at Royals & HOYT shows. The comments should not be negative, but a detailed educated response, as to why they choose the horse that won. Competitors & spectators may then show a little more respect for the judges opinion if judges could demonstrate their knowledge.

krystlepurple (Guest)
20-04-01, 11:18 AM
Well yes I do agree with the comments & idea for the judges but as if the judges would tell the truth anyway, they would just say 'oh he/she worked nicely on the day or its a nice type' or some crap.
This would never happen in the hackie world as it would be honest and the word 'honest and hacks' just doesnt go!!!
After going to sydney royal this year with all the petty bitching and scandles that went on it is enough for me to give up, it is far too late for the hackies!! There is just no hope so either put up with it or give up.
Please dont all go and get offended and take this personally but it is the truth, yes there are some nice people out there but very few and generally they are all two faced backstabbers and thats all there is to it.

Krystle.

NAT (Guest)
20-04-01, 11:43 AM
Krystle, it is young riders like you and Nicole that should be aiming to improve on the sport and not throw it away. It is our generation that holds the future to the sport. Showing Icons like Vick Lawrie for example have begun to pave the way for honesty and professionalism and have voiced their concerns openly. It is now that you two are making horses your business that you should be playing a greater role in the outcome of events such as our HOTY and Royals.

You are the voice of our youth. Between the two of you there is not much that goes on that you don't know about. So how about having a greater input as to what 'we' want showing to become. You are paying Hack Council members so voice your concerns at meetings and forums where you can make a difference.

Becoming negative at your age and stage of the game is fruitless as that means some of these so called unfair undesirables take home the bows.

See you at Bathurst for another round!!!!! PS: We have an excellent choice of judges.

Krystlepurple (Guest)
20-04-01, 12:00 PM
Who are you?

Well as for hacking, Do you really think people at places like Hack Council would really listen to us kids????? I dont think so at all!!!!!!!! They really couldnt give two hoots about us really.
Yes I do agree we have a good choice of judges at Bathurst and am looking foward to going as well. I really have to go and get Nicole dinner as she can be quiet nasty when she hasnt eaten!!
LOL
Krystle.

Casey (Guest)
20-04-01, 01:06 PM
Hacking is the Beauty Pagent of Horses. No matter who wins, there will always be someone who doesn't agree. There will always be the bitchiness and the fights, and there will always be the remark of "they didn't deserve that." But no matter what, it is YOU who choses to be in that particular sport, therefore you should be able to cope with the criticism from others, and especialy the judge, because your not only there to have FUN, but your asking for someone elses opinion on your horse. And lets face it, not everyone is going to agree. In the topic of changing or improving the sport, no matter what you do there is ALWAYS going to be cheating, it happens in all sports. Bringing in microphones or score sheets is a good idea, but it's not only going to be that that is going to make a difference, it is the COMPETITORS!!!! Being truthful and honest and accepting peoples opinions will only do the world of showing good.

Bravado (Guest)
20-04-01, 01:44 PM
I think Casey makes a valid point:

Everyone here is basically putting the problems within showing down to the judges. Surely all the problems associated with showing can't be attributed to judges? Competitors have responsibilities also...in the end we all have a choice of where we show and who we show under. Any misconduct is the same as would be found in any other sport.

This topic seems to go on and on and I am feeling rather nauseous with Deja Vu...

Strike (Guest)
21-04-01, 12:40 AM
Yes it's dissapointing to go to a show after the time and expense put in, only to find the judging has been below par at any level. The good thing about showing is that next week you will go to another show with different judges. No one will always win, so be gracious and let the people who have won enjoy their time at the top. There will be other shows and other royals etc... especially for those youngsters 9 to 12 years old.

Expecting to go well at every show under every judge is somewhat presumptious, and that is something you can never be in the world of showing, that is what makes it interesting.

NAT (Guest)
21-04-01, 03:44 AM
Krystle, I have had the pleasure of judging you a couple of times. You and Nicole have always been gracious as winners and placegetters. This is encouraging for younger judges as I once was. Now it is your turn. Yes, your elders do listen. They have listened to me and I am nobody!!! They do not listen for who you are but the ideas and suggestions that you present in a logical and polite manner. Keep in mind that it is your generation who will be running these events as our elders begin to hang up their hacking canes.

Some of the improvements that you see at our Hack Council and EFA run shows are direct outcomes of suggestions made by the larger body - the competitors. That is who we run these events for.

On a personal note, if you sit your Hack Council Judges exam (which you will pass easily) and put your hand up for a few judging commitments, then you will be a greater force to be reckoned with. Food for thought!!!!

PS: Bring your woollies to Bathurst as we have had cold nights but warm days. Beginning to rain again as we speak. Could be a muddy occasion but probably not as bad as last year. PSS: Did you end up selling the bay galloway?

Krystlepurple (Guest)
21-04-01, 06:05 AM
I am going to do a judging exam for sure as soon as I find out where to do one.
I really think it would be better if they got younger judges in, I remember one year at Castle Hill, Sara Muratore judged and did a really good job, there are so many bad judges out there that should have retired long ago. I dont say this because I dont win but they do a truely bad job.
I hope Bathurst isnt too muddy I cant stand all my stuff being dirty, as you all probably know.
Well anyway I hope that I go well at Bathurst as it is my last show for the year. [apart from EFA and HC HOTY.] WOOOOO HOOOOO.
No I didnt sell the bay galloway, I have only had one person that was interested from Vic but she had to sell her pony, she is going to look at him at Bathurst, as for all the rest, they just wasted my time and thats about it. As usual I got shitty and decided not to sell him, but if these people want him at Bathurst I will consider it as they sound like a great home and the girl is a great little rider.
He is such a sweety and he already has 7 open wins for next years royals. I think I would miss my little 'pornie' soooo much, so I dont mind if I dont sell him.
Anyway I guess I will go now and do some work.....hahaha
See you all.
Krystle

Krystlepurple (Guest)
21-04-01, 06:09 AM
Well you hope you have different judges the next weekend, we did a run out bush last year and had the same judges for the first three shows. LOL. It was a joke. But still we had so much fun.
Krystle.

gjs (Guest)
22-04-01, 05:43 AM
How many times in the last 30 years of showing have I heard the gallery saying 'that horse should not have won it missed its change, broke in the trot, did not extend enough, missed a change twice, that horse did not work!!! etc etc, and coming from people who judge as well. A judge should not judge on work alone as this would be then just a simple dressage test. What happened to the thought of a hack being a quality well presented good conformed sound horse first and then looking at manners and paces. A dressage horse may make several errors in a test and still win or be placed in that test however a hack in many judges eyes should work perfectly to win or be placed. I feel that if prospective judges were taught to judge on the good points and not on faults and if the horse only does a perfect work out it would do a lot for the system. When watching a hack do a workout try looking at the quality of the overall movement, and did the movement look comfortable to ride and not eg:'opps I wanted an extension and it did not give me enough so its out' what about the rest of the workout??? did it count at all. Again my winner did a perfect workout (in that judges eyes) however is it of the quality, conformation etc of the second or third that may have made an error or two. I could go on and on but readers are probably bored enough again this is only my opinion and how I judge.
Giving comments on each class and I have had to do this when I have judged overseas does take up a lot more time and the shows usually have a very tight schedule to run to as with scoring with points which I have had to do at major breed shows. However I believe one should be able to justify their decision on the day. Lets try to get the basics as mentioned above right first as you cannot please all.
Thanks to those who have bothered to read this. GJS

Craig (Guest)
22-04-01, 08:17 AM
Yes it true people will bitch and carry on when they dont like a decision. But I think it is easier to cop a bad decision made honestly than it is to know you never really had a chance because the ribbons were decided weeks ago over the phone. IMHO the reason this topic keeps coming up is because people have had enough. People arent that niave or unenlightened. Do you people that keep saying that it is someones opinion expect us top keep swollowing that! Do you really think we are that stupid that we dont know which judging merry-go-round these cretins just stepped off.
Yes there are honest judges but at present there seems to be this culture where people consider that they must get on a merry-go-round if they want to be successful.

Bravado (Guest)
22-04-01, 10:53 AM
GJS: You are a diamond you share my sentiments exactly...more emphasis on quality...not just work

Merry go round, Shmerry go round- Perhaps if people cared to look harder at their horses they would soon learn that the glass ceiling and the elusive "judging merry go rounds" are merely figments of a paranoid imagination!!

As a young judge/competitor I have at times been extremely frustrated but I can tell ALL that self-criricism and hard work in the showring pay off...

The dressage fraternity would also be up in arms to learn that they were going to be judged on their horses quality as the TRUE hackies (the people that strive to find the ultimate SHOW horse) are now up in arms about showing turning to a more performance based discipline.."Performance based discipline" eeew yuck even the sterile sound of it makes me queezy!

Why change a wonderful and unique discipline for the sake of a few people who are CYCLICAL whingers they will always whinge regardless, if they can't stand the heat I suggest, perhaps they get out of the kitchen...

Bravado (Guest)
22-04-01, 11:27 AM
ooops spelling..I meant "self-criticism" probably an unfamiliar word to many of the whingers in here!!

Guineas (Guest)
22-04-01, 12:11 PM
Nat,
Following on from your comments above, and Krystlepurle's response..........I think that it would be a good idea if the Hack Councils (in all states) introduced a Youth Committee. A proper one with Pres, Sec, Treas and Publicity Officer, and that they were allowed a delegate at all meetings of the Hack Councils and also be asked to give an overview of what is happening. This would serve a couple of purposes: teach our young and future judges some patience and allow them to get some perspective of orgainising a show, also would allow them to put forward constructive ideas to improve the showing world out there. It is the youth of the showing world who are going to change the whole "rotten apple" aspect of the showing world and bring a semblence of enjoyment back into the sport.
The older competitors, not all, but most, seem to have forgotten the fun it is to show and have forgotten also to teach our children good manners.
These Youth Committees could promote judging seminars and judging schemes for youth competitors and they could also help get the youth competitors together just for FUN. They could have a Youth fundraising stall of secondhand saddlery and/or riding wear at one of the shows, a kariaoke (hope that is spelt corrrectly) night (not too late) at some of the major shows, and organise for some high profile people to speak to them on all different subjects. Now the Publicity Officer could organise a newsletter each month with interesting articles to help the youth improve various aspects of their equestrian endeavours, also have a rider of the month, with a photo and a like and dislike segment. Open up a penpal page, and a page for those youth who just want to tell you about their much loved pony..........The adults in the Hack Councils have to be responsible for the riders of the future.......
Sorry to have gone on so long........
Just food for thought.....

Craig (Guest)
23-04-01, 12:17 AM
Good stuff. Positive thinking can do a heep of good and I think that when people realise we have problems its no good shutting your eyes and saying 'it doesn't exist'. We need more people like you our there.

Yasmin (Guest)
23-04-01, 01:58 AM
TO BRAVADO,

Forget about the whinging wannabes they are of little consequence to you, keep posting your insightful works, they will never be happy.

Let them go on whinging, whining, sniping and flaming. Keep it positive. Which doesn't mean we have our eyes shut!

Bravado (Guest)
23-04-01, 03:24 AM
Thanks "Yasmin"...

These people don't affect me really...

It seems apparent that there are 2 types of people here:

1. Those who are willing to say something positive about showing but still admit YES there are problems which will not be solved by whinging, and you are right Yasmin we don't have our eyes closed it is just not constructive to whinge and flame people..we ALL know and can appreciate how much whingers are disliked...Yes there is a problem with judges yes there is corruption at times, but it transcends every institution WORLDWIDE not just showing...

and

2. well I have already sort of eluded to who the opposing type of people are, sure they are fed up but the POINT I am trying to make is that it is impossible to say that:

A horse that has X amount of quality, X amount of correct conformation, X amount of rideability and Performs to an X standard within a workout should always win it is OPINION!

There is no standard of excellence that can be applied. TOP horses are consistent RIGHT? It is impossible to regulate a SUBJECTIVE sport/hobby

Wouldn't it be boring if we all could say that the horse that can lengthen from A to B, that is pleasant and a reasonable mover will always win..? That would mean we would all revel in a sport that is based on MEDIOCHRITY..not for me thanks..!

Sure we all get fed up seeing the same faces winning BUT it is the differing of opinions and the diversification of winners that makes showing what it is...

It seems that category 2. will never lose their myopia or think outside their circle...perhaps if they realised that any changes brought about by bitterness will NOT mean they will do any better...with their horses then they would think again?

:Out the window with PERFORMANCE BASED SHOWING...whether you think my comments are rife with hypocrisy or not it is my true and HONEST sentiments I convey..."mjt" ok?

I am not attcking those who disagree just positing my feelings..

enough said.

Craig (Guest)
23-04-01, 04:25 AM
Somebody has posted above (No 23)using my name. I'm assuming they meant to post to me and wrote my name instead of there own. Just thought I would clear that up for people who might be confused as to what I (they) were talking about.

As I am sure I am one of the disliked whinger's identified in the post above I would like to apologise to everybody who reads these threads. I was under the mistaken impression that to make any improvements (which I beleive is what the thread is about) problems needed to be identified, aknowledged and then possible solutions discussed. Obviously this is not the case. It is clear to me now that it would be much more constructive to do and say nothing.
Once again I apologise to all for having to read another of my long winded, totally insane whinges.

BTDT (Guest)
23-04-01, 05:10 AM
Craig, there is room for improvement in every sport but when people come up with constructive ideas then it can start being changed for the better, Whinging on about how bad the judge is,or so and so shouldnt have won because, or the winners are already chosen before the event isnt going to rectify anything, as the same old stories have been going on for years,Yes the cheats will still be there no matter what is done, as there is in all sports where there is a JUDGE, No-one can ever stop a individuals opinion,it would be a very boring world if we all liked the same things wouldnt it,It is only natural that ALL of us would like certain things changed, but naturally to suit ourselves. We show our horse because we enjoy it,for good or bad results and as much as we dislike it sometimes we keep going back for more WHY because we know next week its a differant judge!

Craig (Guest)
23-04-01, 06:27 AM
"We show our horse
>because we enjoy it,for good
>or bad results and as
>much as we dislike it
>sometimes we keep going back
>for more WHY because we
>know next week its a
>differant judge!"

Not all of us keep going back BTDT. I for one gave up a couple of years ago because I consider the "sport" to be on a rather rapid downward spiral and didnt want any part of it. ( In an issue of THM Maree T wrote an article were I beleive she called Hacking "a dying sport that has been politically bastardised" that sumed it up perfectly I thought).

Ill stop dwelling on the negative (whingeing) as I know how you all hate that. But I think that it is worth giving some thought to the original question "What can we do to improve the Sport?" Probably nothing, but at least lets listen/aknowledge some of the problems/issues/concerns that people feel are facing this sport. Everyone seems to be so passionate about this sport so why dont people try to use this forum as a useful tool to discuss possible improvements in a civilised manner. At the moment people just want to rip anybody that disagrees with them apart the only purpose serves is a damaging one.

Who knows if things actually did improve I may consider taking up hacking again. But at the moment I just feel sorry for those people with showing in there blood who are frustrated as hell but can't give up.

BTDT (Guest)
23-04-01, 07:28 AM
O.K. Craig, What idea's can you come up with, constructive ideas, that is going to improve our sport, I for one am not ripping into anyone, I am just suggesting that people look at things from a different side, and as far as showing being a dying sport am I right when I say the entries were up at all the royals,
Tell me, which posts have come up with constructive ideas it just seems to me that people like coming on here to have a big run down showing session, has all this been done before, Yes ,was there any conclusion No, I would love to see showing improved, the same as you,the same as everyone that shows, but running down the judges,and whinging about the sport that most of us enjoy really dosnt help.

BTDT (Guest)
23-04-01, 07:38 AM
OOPS sorry there are people on here that do have some ideas I was thinking I was in another post?

t (Guest)
23-04-01, 07:43 AM
The year that sara muratore judged at castle hill she placed this girl really high up in the rider classes for no apparent reason.
those of us who know though, knew that that girl was her cousin. So even the young judges can be a bit suss

i LOVE hacking and couldn't do anything else. Don't try and change the sport. live with it or do dressage(or you can do both). There is not enough time for comments as hack days always run too long any way and there is far too much waiting already. and what can you say to a badly presented pony clubber? i placed you third and last because everyone else presented their horse nicely!?!

besides the spectators all see the workout and can pick the winners for themselves so comments on a microphone would be boring repeatition.

i LOVE hacking; don't change the sport.

NAT (Guest)
23-04-01, 09:52 AM
GUINEAS,

Thank you for your intelligent and productive response on this issue. It seems that there have not been many of your calibre listening and reading between the lines. We need to make constructive suggestions on this forum to increase the chances of resolving this problem.

And Heaven knows BILL could do with some positive readings coming from the hacking fraternity, as at late it has been very unproductive and personal.

Yes your idea on youth input within the Hack Council is excellent. Maybe, one of our viewing youths could take it and present it at a meeting. They under estimate the tolerance and care their elders have.

Nat

Bravado (Guest)
23-04-01, 10:25 AM
"t"...

I agree with you it is always a long day and heading onto the topic of why perhaps it is dying it is a very expensive sport...we all have less time and less$$$ fix that and it would be a start to improving numbers...

The thing I didn't like about "t"'s response was her attack on Sara...whether that occurred or not you should NEVER repeat stuff like that on here it is TOO public..

She is young self-made TRUE hackie who has exhibited some of the better ponies around..it is flaming like that..which will be detrimental to showing...

It has no place on CYBERHORSE..take the issue up elsewhere..positive/constructive criticism only need be posted..

Comments such as yours will only serve to quash the confidence of the decent young people left in this sport...Most reports I heard of this occasion were positive and centred around her competence, freshness and unaffected manner as a young judge...

Krystlepurple (Guest)
23-04-01, 02:48 PM
Well as for "t's" comment about her judging is really unfair, I am sure you dont even know the girl, Sara is really nice and did a good job that day. I am also sure that Sara wouldn't do anything unfair.

Also as it was said on one of the other threads for all you people that are hiding behind some silly cyber name if you are going to bad someone at least have a backbone to put your name to it and dont be gutless.

Krystle.

horse_guy_17 (Guest)
24-04-01, 03:55 AM
To all of those who have posted on this thread regarding the youth in our sport, I am extremely grateful. The future of our sport depends on the up and coming competitors, and with support of the older members, it shall continue.
GUINEAS, your idea of a Youth Committee is a wonderful concept.
NAT, I haven't heard of you before, but hopefully I can meet you at Bathurst. You have extremely good ideas, and I credit you.
BRAVADO, you have put across some good ideas, along with many others. Perhaps it is now time to put these thoughts into action.
What are your thoughts in going about implementing these ideas? Do those concerned form their own committee then approach the EFA or Hack Council with a representative? Or is the EFA and Hack Council those to approach?
Lets all get together, and discuss our CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISMS and make the changes happen.

Cheers, Jeremy.

PS NAT, please email me. jez_1010@yahoo.com

NAT (Guest)
25-04-01, 01:48 AM
Jeremy,
tried to email you but rejected for some reason. Will try again before BAthurst. Your last comment basically sums up this topic until the tin of worms opens again.

Hope to see you at Bathurst. have new baby and expensive mortgage so I'll be strapping sister on hack only. Have had heaps of rain and its very cold so pack accordingly.

NAT