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kelli
24-01-08, 08:50 AM
theres a lady on another forum that im a member of whos 5yo daughters pony was killed by dogs about a week ago, the dogs havent been destroyed but are at the pound pending legal action, the dogs owners are fighting it all the way, now the owner of the pony isnt so worried about getting compensation so much as having the dogs destroyed, who can she get to help her in her battle as cleary these dogs should be pts , she is in qld, i have suggested she contact ACA today tonight, her local paper etc but what else can she do?

any suggestions appreciated

pauper
24-01-08, 09:06 AM
Hi Kelli i think you have already given her good advice :)
maybe just get her to emphasise that next time
it could be a child :( .

Please send my condolences to your friend and her daughter as losing a pony that way would be horrific.

freddy01
24-01-08, 10:39 AM
Hi Kelli

Please send my condolences as well, it must be extremely difficult to explain that to her daughter.

Maybe she could contact her local councillor about this as well, and like Pauper said stress the issue that it could be somebody's child next time. I was under the impression the council had a fair bit of control on the issue of dogs being destroyed when things like this happen.

I Dare Ya
24-01-08, 10:50 AM
If there is one thing I am mightily sick of hearing ...."could be a child next"
What a load of crock!!

ANIMAL aggression and HUMAN aggression.Two very DIFFERENT things.Absolutely NO correlation between them .

Has it in fact been proven the two dogs being held were in fact the culprits ?
If so the dogs WILL be destroyed.The owners wont win .

If they are YET to be proven to be the dogs involved ? Then how about you WAIT.

kelli
24-01-08, 12:40 PM
the dogs were caught in the paddock with the freshly dead pony and wouldnt let anyone near it

ally2
24-01-08, 01:00 PM
we have not long ago had our neighbour's dogs kill ours & a friends dog on our property - the short story is the police came then passed it over to the council who impounded the dogs - the neighbours agreed to have their dogs pts but the other dog belonged to someone staying with them & she would not consent so the council set out a very onerous & expensive set of hoops that had to be jumped through to save the dog - large wire fenced run with concrete floor & roof - dog was declared a dangerous dog, was not to allowed out at all except on a lead & with a muzzle -pound fees to be paid whilst this was done etc - the girl then gave her permission quite quickly all very distressing but it had to be done killing dogs today perhaps the grandchildren tomorrow? that didn't sway the owner but the $$$s did - we are in NSW but it is a council & police matter here..terrible I know but I almost wished they had gone after our horse & they would have been very quickly dispatched - a pony would not have had a chance.

gypsy_dreamer
24-01-08, 01:13 PM
Dare ya, it's not the correlation between horse and animal that causes dogs to kill, it's the chase.

Prey runs, prey gets killed. Simple. Not that big a distinction after a while to the dogs. Some may hesitate but if they keep doing it, eventually the hesitation will be gone and so will the child.

Happens regularly in the country towns, kid gets bit, owner shoots dog. Doesn't make papers out here.

freddy01
24-01-08, 01:18 PM
Well said gypsy dreamer.

Was just saying the same thing to the OH.

I Dare Ya
24-01-08, 01:30 PM
Oh bullshit .

If you people seriously believe that then in the long run we will see many , many more breeds added to the BSL list.

Prey in no way equals human in a dogs eyes.
And yes,that includes children.

In fact a high prey drive does not in fact equal aggression .

It amazes me the amount of 'beliefs' that get sprouted as fact on the internet.You would perhaps be wise to perhaps do some research.

Because a dog has attacked an animal does IN NO WAY mean a child could be next.

*sheesh*

ally2
24-01-08, 01:45 PM
agreed gypsy dreamer - in the case of the dogs that killed here I also witnessed them take a galah & rip it to shreds - they were hunting
in the case of the second dog killed, a large border collie, the owner was on a tractor, his dog was quietly sitting at the side of the paddock when the dogs attacked it, the bc barely had time to turn let alone run
- the owner witnessed the attack but was unable to get off the tractor & over to it quickly enough - in the case of my dog I only saw the end of the attack & the pack of dogs running away from the house - I did not see the beginning of the attack but knowing my dog she would have stood & defended her territory so I can't agree with you I dare you
- dogs can be hunters as well as chasers
I'm forever reading/hearing of instances where children have been attacked injured & some killed (& one taken from a bassinet recently)so I don't think taking a head in the sand approach to the possibility of children being hurt is prudent or sensible

kelli
24-01-08, 02:05 PM
oh for crying out loud, bsl should not even come into it 2 dogs killed a pony, said dogs should be pts end of story, i dont even know what breed they are, that shouldnt matter

at my house if a dog draws blood on animal or human it is shot, there is no place in todays society for dangerous dogs

Hails
24-01-08, 02:14 PM
I am an emergency nurse...i have seen lots and lots of people who come in after being attacked by a dog. And here is a little tip for you...they are attacked by their own dogs. Many start when 2 dogs are fighting with each other. The owner (familiar to the dogs obviously) tries to break up the fight and the dogs turn on the owner. i have seen a man need major plastic surgery when his dog mauled him. Happens ALL THE TIME. looks to me like there is no differentiation between animal and human there...Dont tell me it doesnt happen because i have seen the evidence first hand!

Miss Positive
24-01-08, 03:04 PM
I Dare Ya, I agree with you on the fact that humans do not equal prey. Killers aren't after prey, they're after blood.

Perhaps another belief sprouted as fact, but in my opinion they aren't breed or drive specific. They are owner specific by having been allowed to roam. The dogs always pay for it, never the owners.

Dangerous owners, not dangerous breeds. Same principle applies to horses, guns, even high performance cars.

There is no question as to whether the dogs should be destroyed. I'm amazed it didn't happen on the spot. I feel dreadful for the family :( The poor little one... I only hope they didn't see it all.

I know my kidlet would tear down the paddock in defense of their old dear. It could easily have been a child too.

Miss Positive
24-01-08, 03:16 PM
Very true Hails, agree 100%. Dog bites are more often than not inflicted by the "family" dog.

I Dare Ya
24-01-08, 04:35 PM
Oh for gods sake!! Here we go with the melodramatic crap!

I never said these dogs in this particular case should NOT be put to sleep . Go back and read my posts carefully.

But do not come here sprouting media fed veiws on a subject you obviously know very little about.

Dam straight it is dangerous owners.Not dangerous dogs.

And ignorant people who are willing to swallow what the media and government twits looking for votes want to feed you .
Do some research of your own .

What I disagree strongly with as it is pure rubbish , is ANIMAL aggression and HUMAN aggression being correlated.

Because a dog has attacked another dog/animal does NOT mean they will next attack a human.


Edited to add ; Hails that has to be seriously the worst bit of crap I've read on dog bites yet. Are you seriously saying that a person who got bitten whilst trying to break up a dog fight is the same as a dog purposefuly attacking a human because its last attack was on an animal ??
If so then please tell me what Cas you work at for I have no wish to come under your treatment.

Last time .
This is SCIENTIFIC , RESEARCHED FACT.
Dog aggression in no way,shape or form equates to human aggresion .

Miss Positive
24-01-08, 05:14 PM
I think what Hails was saying was intended in relation to dog bite injuries treated rather than dog/human agression. That's the way I took it anyway... could be wrong of course, has happened once or twice before lol

tiffany
25-01-08, 12:51 AM
The dogs in question were a Rottweiler and a Rottweiler cross - their fate is still pending - the fate of the pony was instant! The cildren witnessed the attack first hand - the fate of the dogs should be INSTANT - they should be destroyed as the vicious killing machines they have proved themselves to be - NO further debate required!

opensky
25-01-08, 01:40 AM
I Dare Ya
"Because a dog has attacked another dog/animal does NOT mean they will next attack a human."

Their nature however predisposes some dogs to be "more ready" to bite (Lower 'flashpoint') Some dogs are prone to greater aggressiveness. FACT. Backed up in the many statistical studies.

Quote from:
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/aug4/thompson/thompson.html


"Results: About 6500 people are injured in Adelaide each year as a result of dog attacks and about 810 seek hospital treatment (7.3 per 10 000 people per year). Children aged 0-4 years were attacked and required hospital treatment twice as often as adults aged 21-59 years, and men aged over 76 years twice as often as men aged 36-75 years. Males were more at risk of attack than females for all age groups. Hospital admission rates were five times higher for the elderly (95% confidence interval [CI], 2.3%-10.2%) and seven times higher for children 12 years and under (95% CI, 3.4%-15.1%) compared with people aged 13-59 years; 90% of children were admitted because of head and facial bites.

The risk of attack from german shepherds, bull terriers, blue/red heelers, dobermans and rottweilers was four to five times higher than for other common breeds." Unquote

You should do dome research yourself, methinks! :)

As Gypsy_dreamer said, happens all the time in the country, dogs kill sheep and get shot, no arguments, no media coverage.

bgw
25-01-08, 01:44 AM
Here, here Tiffany, I agree whole heartedly. there is no place in our society for dogs like this.

Responsible owners would have seen to it straight away.

We were in Tamworth showing once when our TS was left at home babysitting the horses, and other sundry animals. Whilst there we got a phone call to tell us that our much loved Great Dane had killed the neighbours fox terrier. We arranged for the GD to be put down immediately. We loved her, and didn't want to have her PTS, but it was the right thing to do. Our neighbour loved his dog too, it was not our dogs place to come and take the life of his dog.

TS was in strife as the dog was not supposed to have been out, he left the gates opened. But needless to say how it happened, it did happen. Still have TS, couldn't put him down

Biddi

CM
25-01-08, 01:56 AM
Hmmmm...I wonder if I Dare Ya beeds/owns one of these:

german shepherds, bull terriers, blue/red heelers, dobermans or rottweilers

Aside from the heelers, I wouldn't touch any of these breeds with a barge pole. Have seen too much weirdness from all these breeds - even those owned by competent and careful people.

My son's friend has one of these and all visiting kids are told not to run about as it upsets the dog, and it chases and attacks. (What the?)

One of our dogs was killed by two German Shepherds. They were not put to sleep (although I would have happily bludgeoned them to death, and in fact had to do this during the attack to protect myself and try to save our pup- unfortunately they were uninjured). After this, lots of local people came out of the woodwork to say that these particular dogs had bitten people and maimed and killed other dogs. They were owned by "pillars of the community" and so were spared any retaliation.

A friend had a pet goat savaged and killed by a Rotty which jumped the fence and carried out the attack in front of the children. They were too scared of the gun-toting Mafia-wannabe owner to do anything about it.

I just know that if my dogs killed anything (other than rabbits), that would be the end for them.

I Dare Ya
25-01-08, 04:38 AM
Actually I have APBT's .

Those of you that are saying some breeds don't have a place in our society?

When they have done with these breeds and they come for yours.
Do not expect support from me .

Research ??
These things are my life.
Deal with them day in ,day out.

Quoting things from misaligned media reports do little to change my mind.


I have said from the very beginning,the dogs in question ,if proved to have done it,should be destroyed, but as is usual around here,
You lot take what you want from posts to be able to turn it into bitching fodder.

If even one of you wen't away and did some " bonafide" research into dog/human aggression then I would be willing to continue this debate.
However , you are still trying to justify your own beliefs in regard to human/animal aggression and it is just NOT there.


Predisposes a dog to then bite a human ??
Well now I've heard it all.....

I Dare Ya
25-01-08, 04:45 AM
Oh and CM.

mmmmmm.....funny isn't that MY breed does not factor in that particular report you have put up but my breed is banned.

The Australian Cattle Dog has long been at the top of bite stats,followed closely by ,ready ? , the Retriever and Labs .
So shouldn't they be banned ?

I am usualy not one to drag another breed into this but when you insist on quoting 10 year old reports that have been questioned by otheer sources over the years and point your finger at certain 'breeds' then I feel compelled to lower myself to your logic.

BarebackGirl
25-01-08, 04:53 AM
To I Dare Ya - everything you have said is 100% correct. There is no doubting any of it and you are a knowledgeable person on the subject.

These know-nothings who actually swallow media BS or are relying on one incident to make a point and so on, it's sad but they're brainwashed and you'll never change that. I'm sure your dogs would appreciate your time more than you getting RSI posting on these topics and trying to change people's minds who don't want to be eduacted anyhow! (but as a good dog owner I know they're probably asleep at your feet so don't need any extra attention ;)

"If there is one thing I am mightily sick of hearing ...."could be a child next"
What a load of crock!!
ANIMAL aggression and HUMAN aggression.Two very DIFFERENT things.Absolutely NO correlation between them ."

That first line of your first post said it all. I know it's frustrating and thank you on behalf of all dogs and decent owners, but you'll never change the minds of people who refuse to see logic and obvious truth.

You are obviously a caring person and know your stuff but you'll just waste your time pointing out such things on forums, everyone with a shed of sense who's read your posts knows you're right and has had thier education added to. I personally wouldn't like you to frustrate yourself arguing such things on forums but of course what you do is totally up to you!

Keep fighting the good fight!

dopy_lopy
25-01-08, 04:54 AM
It's terrible a little girls pony has been killed.
I work at our local council in QLD and hear about the dog attacks that happen all the time.
Our Local Laws officer responds very quickly to any calls about attacks. But unfotunately our Councils Local Laws means we can't just have the dogs, which have been accused of the attack pts, unless the owner has consented. Its a long slow process especially if there are no witnesses to the attack to have them pts. And in some cases we can't prove it and Council's Socilitors advice is that any legal action simply won't hold up in court if we don't have enough evidence. In those cases though as someone explained earlier Council has declared the dog dangerous and placed a lot of restrictions on ownership of the animal if it was to stay in the Shire. And this usually adds up to a fair bit of expense to the owner such as fencing to keep the dog in, signs to warn people of the dangerous animal, increased registration fees, release fee from the pound etc. So the owner usually agrees to let the animal go.

Tell this lady to speak with her Councillors and the Council Officers to find out just what Local Law they have in place for a dog that is declared dangerous and what kind of ees and extra conditions are placed on people who insist on keeping dangerous dogs in her Shire/Council.

I Dare Ya
25-01-08, 05:02 AM
Bareback Girl

Thankyou!

Thankyou for your well written,sensible,logical post.
Thankyou for the breath of fresh air and hope you just blew my way.

You are right and I would do better putting my energy towards more worthwhile causes.
My dogs are in fact ( having just been bathed by our 7 year old son) awaiting to be taken to the park.

I again thankyou Bareback Girl.

opensky
25-01-08, 05:22 AM
There are good and bad in every breed, granted.

A genuine question while we’re on this theme.
Something I think kids should be aware of, too.

What is the best position to put yourself in if you have time to, when a dog is barrelling straight at you, aggressively?

I was walking one morning a few years ago, (farming country) and looked up to see neighbours dog (a rotty, never out normally) thundering towards me. Now, I live in plains country. Not a tree in sight where this was happening, only a gravel road and paddocks with barbed wire and other with electrics nearby. Having been mauled in the face by a dog years before, I can tell you I was beside myself, being out in the open, with no way to get out of the dog’s reach.

Suddenly from some deep recess in my brain I remember hearing that you should get down (ditch nearby), crouch tight, head down and cover the back of your neck with your hands. Fortunately for me the owner appeared as I was getting into the ditch, and called the dog back, and even more fortunately, it responded! I took my jelly self home still sweating!

I know some say stand dead still, but I know bigger dogs can actually jump at you, knock you down, or bite your hands and in panic you could stumble, trip and fall and suffer worse. I figure body bites are ‘better’ (i.e; less life threatening) than facial ones!?

Anyone got advice? Not that I foresee this happening again, just interested.

BarebackGirl
25-01-08, 05:25 AM
That's ok I Dare Ya, someone who is in the right and trying that hard for a very worthy cause deserves people's support :)

kelli
25-01-08, 07:19 AM
if you go back and read my post i said "there is no place in todays society for dangerous dogs" i still havent said a breed, i have owned staffords for the last 12 years breeding, showing etc, i know what bsl is, you claim we are the narrow minded ones but as soon as i mentioned dangerous dogs you are the one who said bsl blah blah blah

i think you will find the dog with the most recorded bites is a maltese terriers, but that still has nothing to do with a dead pony

ive said it before and i'll say it again, but will say it in a way you will understand :jugde the deed, not the breed", yes i to have been on the bsl bandwagon, i dont own staffords anymore not because of the dogs themselves but more the people who own them


anyway thanks everyone else for your condolences and support i will pass on your comments

Kelsarni_Farm
25-01-08, 09:07 AM
I Dare Ya - I can't believe your arrogence. If there is any 'beleif' then your is the seriously twisted ones.
Dogs have killed children yes???
Well then if a dog kills another animal expecially a full grown horse wouldn't you want that dog distroyed to minimise the risk of a child being hurt?
I know of a dog recently on someones property thats mauled chickens, sheep and chased a perfectly quiet horse through a fence, breaking his leg and having to be put to sleep. And the bloody owners have quickly removed the dog from the property and hidden it 200km to avoid having it put to sleep. Now I used to agist there and I certainly wouldn't want my 16month old child running around while there's a dog there that kills animals.
A dog seriously has to be agressive to kill like that, it would have to do some serious damage to cause wounds to kill and their certainly not going to stop and think "hang on this is a human I better not hurt them". They don't think that way!
A dog can also snap extremely quickly. A child would just have to pat the dog for it to quickly snap and rip of their arm.
Sorry I dare ya, your totally wrong. If an animal kills then its more then capable of killing a human. ANY dog is but why highten the risk with one that already has?

You seem to be full of beliefs then facts.

Kelsarni_Farm
25-01-08, 09:15 AM
>I just know that if my dogs killed anything (other than
>rabbits), that would be the end for them.

I totally agree (apart from the rabbits because we just bought four pet ones :D lol). I LOVE our dog, he's awesome but if he ever was to kill an animal or bite a person then we wouldn't hesitate. We have young children, one 16 months and one currently in my belly and its our duty to protect them. And rehoming is out of the question, I'd have it on the back of my mind "what if he".
But it does come down to training and socialisation doesn't it. We're always socialising our dog and he's well trained, but they do have their own natural instincts.

If they have teeth...they can bite.

foxni483
25-01-08, 11:23 AM
That is terrible, I can not imagine how angry i would be if that happend to my horses (although one of them would prob turn round, chase the dog, pick it up and throw it).

Ummmmm HUMANS ARE ANIMALS, now correct me if i am wrong, but dogs do not have enough mental capacity to know the difference between greater apes (like us) and lesser animals! :P :P :P
I fail to see how a dog that enjoys attacking will stop and think oh that is a human i don't attack humans, i only have non human animal aggression
So what if there is research on it, a lot of research is utter crap!

Kelsarni_Farm
25-01-08, 01:21 PM
FULLY agree with you foxni483!

I Dare Ya
25-01-08, 01:26 PM
OK , I seriously give up .
At least here anyway .

Smug know it alls that just do NOT listen!

For the very last time.

I have already said , numerous times . if the dogs did it then yes they should be destroyed .Never did I say any different.

I have always said DEED not BREED . I actually thought that sentiment was rather clear .

But Kelsarni_Farm , it is twits like yourself that will see many more breeds added unfairly to the BSL list .
And this does come under that interest as the Rotty is already a serious contender to be added . As are the Amstaffs .

And if you would like me to seriously apply your logic ?
Then how about we start with banning the SWF (small white fluffies)?
As mentioned above,they figure highly in the bite stats.
And then we'll move onto the Cattle dogs yes ?
Oh and dont forget the Lab ....
Or what about the Kelpies ?! They bite stock ?! *gasp* Child next.
THAT is your logic.
Sounds rather petty and childish doesn't it.

I stand by what I said.
You are seriously fooling yourselfs and pandering to the media driven bullshit.

It is still absolute fact .
There is NO correlation between animal aggression and human aggression.

*bah!*

I Dare Ya
25-01-08, 01:27 PM
Sarah before you go and run off at the mouth about a subject you know sweet F all about....do some bloody research!

Its not that hard.

duntrace
25-01-08, 03:48 PM
The dogs should be put down for attacking/killing the pony, esp if they have a history of attacking other animals. Whats to stop them from doing it again to another animal?

I have a pet hate with stray dogs! But its NOT the dogs fault that their owners are MORONS! I get so F'in sick of seeing stray dogs around town!

About 6 months ago a friends horse had to be put down because a dog chased it and somehow it ended up with a broken/shattered hock. The dog was a pigging dog, KNOWN for chasing cattle. A visiting family member had left the gate open, the dog got out. The dog would not come when called, even to its owner, so was shot by the owners friend when it continued to chase other horses in the paddock. It was sad, but it couldnt be stopped any other way.

I agree with I dare ya's comments about attacking animals doesnt neccesarily lead to attacking people. I think its the luck of the draw. You hear about faithful family pets attacking kids or the owner, so you never really can be sure, can you!

I owned a German Shep, awesome dog, but she did once attack another dog. A STRAY dog that was always in our yard/roaming the streets. I was out the front with my GS when she suddenly ran at the dog and attacked it. As soon as I got to them, I yelled and kicked my dog, she immediately ran back into the house. We paid the vet bill for the dog she attacked, I did not get my dog put down. However, from that day forth, she NEVER was taken ANYWHERE, not even to the front letter box and back, without a leash on. I was pissed off to later hear that the same dog she attacked, had only recently gotten over being hit by a car, AGAIN out roaming the street!! Thats no justification for what my dog did, but dogs should NOT be out loose/unsupervised.

As I dare ya was implying/saying, I would trust my GS with kids long before I would trust my chihuahua with kids!!! With my GS it was a protecting thing, I fully believe she attacked the dog to protect our place. Our neighbours on one side of us used to abuse her, kicking at the fence to scare her, throwing things at her etc when she was only 1yr old. She got VERY defensive towards them, soon as they went outside into their backyard she'd start pacing the fence and sometimes barking at them. She didnt like them at all and I DONT BLAME HER! THEY PROVOKED HER! In contrast, when the neighbours on the other side were in their back yard, she would sit quietly watching their 1yr old daughter playing. The little girl would crawl/walk over to the fence and pat my GS, who would gently lick her fingers and just sit watching her with the most docile look on her face. But if the neighbours on the other side of us came outside, she would change dramatically. If she bit one of them theres NO WAY I would have had her put down (unless she FULL ON attacked them). They f'in deserved it!

My chihuahua, I wont let kids go near her because she doesnt like them (because when she was younger a friends kid used to chase/corner her ALL THE TIME and try and grab her and basically annoy the hell out of her) so if kids annoy her, she will nip at them. If they are old enough to understand, then its THEIR fault. "DONT PLAY WITH THE DOG", means, dont play with the dog!! People have to respect animals too. I know my little dog very well, shes now 13yrs old, she wont chase or go after kids, she hides from them because she doesnt like them. If a kid is nipped at by her, I KNOW they were the ones chasing/provoking her and hopefully they will learn their lesson to respect animals and it wont happen to them with a big dog!

No matter what opinions you agree with, bottom line is, people need to be RESPONSIBLE pet owners. Dogs SHOULD NEVER be allowed to roam the streets no matter what breed! Not only should those dogs be put down, the OWNERS should be held responsible. They should pay to "replace" the pony!!

CM
25-01-08, 04:07 PM
Look, I have for years been very anti those people who got all hot under the collar about gorgeous animals acting naturally in our man-made society.

But I guess after have kids my attitude has shifted slightly. And after seeing how SOME BREEDS - which have been selectively bred for certain traits - including aggression and dominance, are over-represented in dangerous or fatal, (rather than nipping-type) attacks, my stance has changed somewhat.

The first dog I was bitten by was a Ridgeback - but I now adore them (especially when they are crossed with something else, a kelpie perhaps - oh heresy!)

We all love our own type of dog. But in MY experience,virtually every Shepherd, Doberman and Rotty have been really anti-social and unpredictable - even with "good" ownership.

I don't know much about American Pit Bull Terriers - except what I read about. Maybe they are just lovely. But it seems odd/sad that a disproportionate number of weird and anti-social people seem to want to own/breed them.

No offence meant I dare Ya. But you have to admit, your favourite dog-type gets a bad rap in terms of responsible ownership. Wonder why?

Meanwhile many Golden Retrievers have seemed stupid - but hey, they seem to lead long and fruitful lives despite their long coats and "stupidity". Same for Jack Russells...bless their little cotton socks. And save them from German Shepherds with shark-like tendencies and dead eyes.

teetee
25-01-08, 04:44 PM
I totally agree that roaming dogs are a much bigger problem than 'agression' so to speak. Agression is very complex and is difficult to pinpoint.

I have a friend with the most gorgeous rotti who plays with my chihuahua and is very well behaved. I would think it a shame if this breed were banned. I also have a husky who has the sweetest nature in the world, but he will kill small animals given the chance (makes him a good mouser!) even though he knows my little dog is not prey I don't take chances.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, all dogs are 99% wolf and you must keep their heritage and instincts in mind at all times.

teetee
25-01-08, 04:49 PM
"And save them from German Shepherds with shark-like tendencies and dead eyes."

Huh? That doesn't sound like the sheps I've met!

Neisje
26-01-08, 02:33 AM
I don't usually get into these kind of debates, but just thought I'd add my opinion.

Firstly to 'I Dare ya' I agree with most of what you say. But must comment that getting stuck into people, calling them idiots etc and losing your cool never works, they wont listen when you get narky at them. It only serves to rile people up and get their backs up.

Over the years I have shown, trained and bred numerous breeds of dogs, German Shephards, German Pointers, Bouviers, Old English Sheep Dogs, Blue Heelers, Dobermans just to name a few. I prefer the working type dogs. My big loves USED to be German Shephards, the reason they are no longer my big love is because a breed that used to be a big solid dog that was bred as a herding dog and was smart and loyal, has become a small reedy looking animal that is highly strung and excitable. This is NOT the dogs doing but the humans who want to change the breed and make it look like what they want to see in the show ring but useless for anything else. There is no such thing as an agressive breed, but there are breeds that are MADE into agressive dogs by the humans handling and there are breeds that are made more volitial (such as the GS) due to humans changing the breed type and losing the qualties the dogs used to be known for. Working type dogs are meant to WORK not meant to be locked up/chained up in someones back yard. Its like taking a highly strung TB and lock it in a small stable and never take it out to let it run, it will turn into a nutcase!

I absolutely agree that a dog that has killed or mauled ANYTHING if it be human or another animal should be destroyed. But don't blame certain breeds for this! I have seen more dog bites from Labs than from GS or Rotties etc The other breed I have seen huge numbers of bites from is Malamutes. And a dog that kills stock wont necessarily turn on a human. There are some that may, but these are out of control badly managed/trained dogs. One of my GS bitches would happily chase down and kill any animal that moved within her line of vision, but would never touch a human, and I mean never! She was abused and I had seen her beaten to a bloody pulp by her former owner and she just took it then came to me when I called her and jumped in my car. My former flatmate has a dog also with a high prey drive and will go after anything that moves, unless its human (child or adult) with humans she becomes the most useless gaurd dog in history, she lets everyone in the house and then rolls on her back for tummy rubs LOL

A friend worked in dog rescue for years. And she brought home more JRT, small white fluffies etc to be evaluated for re-homing as they had been surendoured for being aggressive than she ever had large dog breeds. One JRT so was SO tiny we all killed ourselves lauging when we saw him, and he was surrendoured because the meals on wheels people and home nursing people refused to go back to the house because he attacked everyone!

Anyway just my opinions. But in regards to the original post, I agree these dogs need to be destroyed and your friend getting in touch with the council and local papers maybe the best way to ensure that is done.

Neisje

puddled
26-01-08, 02:53 AM
My goodness are the emotions running high in this thread.
I think a number have a little to much Pit Bull running through their veins.
The question was what else can she do?
Who gives a dam what dog, breed etc whats done is done sad and horrific.
Getting our shackles all up does what? Nothing
Kelli you have given good advice feel comfortable in that knowledge.

Jesssica
26-01-08, 03:26 AM
My partner owns a heeler x border collie that has progressively killed all my chooks just for the fun of it. I completely trust her around the horses (no way could she take on a 16+hh warmblood or TB and she doesnt even try) but I dont care what anyone says - I cant imagine her ever attacking a child or human and I whilst I would feel very happy having her around my children when I have them, but I would never leave her alone with one. Ever. Just not worth the risk. I know I would never get over it if she did something to a child.

I have grown up with animals and dogs all my life.
I believe any dog is capable of an attack but only a small % would. I also believe certain breeds are more prone to attack but again only a small % do.
But I do believe if a dog (any breed) has proven it will attack and kill or maim another animal or human they are more risky than the dog that hasn’t.
If I had my way our dog would be shot but as my OH is extremely attached to her we have set up a series of barriers to try and prevent the chooks being killed again. If she ever looked like attacking a horse (particularly a foal) I would shoot her myself.

violetsmum
26-01-08, 04:57 AM
>>I know some say stand dead still, but I know bigger dogs can actually jump at you, knock you down, or bite your hands and in panic you could stumble, trip and fall and suffer worse. I figure body bites are ‘better’ (i.e; less life threatening) than facial ones!?

Yes, bigger dogs can knock you over. A doberman, who knew me, decided one afternoon to line me up, leap at my chest, knocked me down flat on my back and then held my down with my throat in his jaws for what seemed like ages. He backed off at the insistance of another person familiar to him. I was a jelly mess, as my life had just flashed before my eyes. I even remember asking the dog after I got up what on earth was going on to trigger an attack?! The owner, a sensible type of man, was horrified at the incident when it was related to him.

I have no malice towards dogs. Even dobermans. But the aggression I experienced that day makes me wary. Fullstop.


>> There is NO correlation between animal aggression and human aggression.
OK, I took your invitation and googled this as I am not 100% sure what you are trying to state here. Are you trying to say that we cannot model human behaviour on animal behaviour? A bit like describing a horse using human terms? Eg: I'm sure my horse got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
OR
Are you saying that a normal dog who lives with an aggressive human wont turn into an agressive dog?

What you have posted is food for thought, but I seek clarification.

In regards to the original poster, an online forum may not specifically assist you, but some sort of legal counsel would be beneficial.

Thanks,
VM

MMC
26-01-08, 05:54 AM
I have said to myself that since this forum started to get so nasty I would keep my mouth shut and have generally avoided any comment.

I am not going to get into this debate but....has anyone else noted just how abnormally aggressive "I Dare Ya" is? Never seen anything like it. I have an image in my head of someone with a bulging vein in the forehead.

To quote shakespeare "me thinks she doth protest too much"

I am out of this now, and I know I am going to cop it from I Dare You but I will live.

Kelsarni_Farm
26-01-08, 07:37 AM
Gosh I dare ya, you must not be able to read.
I didn't state anyone that it is the breeds fault? I've always supported "DEED NOT THE BREED" my whole life. What I was trying to say is that ANY dog is capable of harming a human, ones that have killed animals are more likely to.
ANY dog needs to be socialised and trained. Its those that arn't or are abused that do these things, NO MATTER THE BREED.
You seem pretty one minded and not open to suggestions. We all know what your getting at but we're speaking from facts and experience not beliefs that have nothing to back them up. Not everything the media says is a lie.

How about you let us 'fool ourselves' and you go off into your own little world and leave us out of it.

Kelsarni_Farm
26-01-08, 07:45 AM
Yep I agree MMC.
I Dare Ya seems to want everyone to follow and agree with her even though all her facts are wrong and twisted.
Atleast I know my children are safe, I just hope there's not more people like her out here with dangerous dogs that have killed before.

Kelsarni_Farm
26-01-08, 07:57 AM
>Sarah before you go and run off at the mouth about a subject
>you know sweet F all about....do some bloody research!
>
>Its not that hard.


Who are you to say what we know or don't know?
Watch your language thankyou.

bgw
26-01-08, 08:09 AM
It is a saad position you are in having to continue to live with a dog that has killed even the chooks, it is lucky that it lives with you and not me.
I do like dogs and do own dogs, but to even kill a chook is off limits in this camp, either they learn to live happily together or they don't.
I have seen dogs before that kill chooks are are fine with horses, but to me if you kill you be killed, no options.

Biddi

I Dare Ya
26-01-08, 11:50 AM
>Yep I agree MMC.
>I Dare Ya seems to want everyone to follow and agree with
>her even though all her facts are wrong and twisted.
>Atleast I know my children are safe, I just hope there's not
>more people like her out here with dangerous dogs that have
>killed before.


Sarah seriously watch what you say . The threads here you can't run to admin and have locked ...
Just who the hell do you think you are ? Obviously not that different from the child I once berated on other subjects and also stuck my neck out for .

Where do you get off!? Dogs that have killed before?!
MY children are fine . MY dogs are NOT killers .YOU know of my dogs FFS!Pull your head in....I speak from experience and many ,many hours/days/months/years research and education on this subject.
You speak as what exactly ? An owner who as at long last gotten their animals to stay around longer then 12 months ?

My apologies to the poster who asked for clarification , I have forgotten your name.
But to answer your question...

There is NO basis for saying that a dog who has attacked another dog/animal will go for a child/adult next.

Human aggression.
Animal aggression.
Two very different things.

I applaud those like yourself that do indeed want to further their own education....this in particular is wide spread common MYTH .
Just like locking jaws . Another whopping MYTH.

Because a dog has attacked another animal does in no way mean a child may be next.In NO way ,shape or form.

As I have said from the absolute get go .
If the dogs in question have been proven to be the culprits they should ( rest assured they WILL be - the owners will NOT win) be PTS.

My problem was with the amount of people who seem to believe that animal aggression equals human aggression.

Out of interest , how many of you own dog aggressive dogs?

Kelsarni_Farm
26-01-08, 12:46 PM
ROFLMAO Ok I Dare Ya, what ever you say :).

Sanduco_Ponies
26-01-08, 12:50 PM
To the original poster - I forget who it was now after reading all this mudslinging and straying from the original point.

I think you have given her very good advice already, TT and ACA would be a good starting point. I would also say local council and perhaps she could get a local petition going. To be honest if it were me they wouldn't have left the property breathing..


We recently rehomed our beautiful natured Boxer girl because she was wandering and creating a nuisance of herself, she never killed another animal or even showed aggression but merely the fact that she wouldn't stay on our property and was wandering and making a nuisance of herself was enough to send her packing as hard as that was. She chased the local's sheep, and was never nasty but I didn't want to find out she'd been shot by one of the farmers - Mind you I wouldn't have blamed them, nuisance wandering dogs have no place anywhere but especially around areas where there's livestock. She couldn't learn to stay on the property, I don't believe in runs or shock collars etc, and she is now in a fantastic home in a suburban backyard and I know she is safe.

As for the comment it could be a child next - For all the arguments that animals are a different thing to humans and it's unlikely that they would attack a child purely because they have attacked an animal, would you want to take a chance on PROBABLY with your own children??? I wonder if these people would feel the same if they lived next door to these dogs???
It might not be proven that they WILL kill a child now because they have killed a pony, but it has been proven that they are KILLERS - That would be enough of a question mark for me to not want children anywhere near these animals, and if they took down and killed a pony what chance would a child have? So indeed it COULD be a child next because the dogs are predisposed to violence and are definetly physically capable of killing a child.
So WILL they kill a child now? That is unknown. COULD they kill a child next? I think it's been proven that they definetly could. S
o if you weigh up those two factors I know which way I'd be siding... But then I suppose those that are arguing that the dogs shouldn't be put down would be happy to live on this womans property and send their children outside to play???

This truely is a tragedy and I can't believe that the owners do not want these dogs pts and would be happy to live with them now.. I personally couldn't imagine waking up and looking at a murderer living under my roof and that's exactly what these animals are...

deelee
26-01-08, 01:02 PM
Excuse me but I own one of "those" breeds mentioned above.

Unfortunately I think the wrong people buy the wrong dog. We did a lot of research before buying our dog and chose the breeder carefully. We then tried out a number of training options and ended up having one on one training sessions.

Everyone at the park comments on how well behaved our girl is and ALL visitors to the house are comfortable with her once they see how well behaved she is. She loves kids and has a great relationship with my niece and nephew. The kids run around as much as they like, she does not get rough with them and actually watches over them. The only thing the kids are not allowed to do is sit with her on her bed, I belive she needs a spot where she can go if she has had enough and they are NOT allowed to hit her (unfortunately so called mother of said kids hits and kicks her dogs so kids got very quick lesson from me when one slapped her - and dogs did not react at all).

She allows the cats to eat her fresh meat from her bowl, she will occassionly quietly creap up next to them and have a nibble while they are eating.

Sorry - to the OP I know this is off track and I agree that the dogs who did the attacking should be pts.

I Dare Ya
26-01-08, 01:04 PM
OK , so its official .

NOBODY here actually READS the posts do they ?

No-one here has said/argued that the dogs shouldn't be PTS .

And you wonder why I get so bloody frustrated ?


And Sanduco_Ponies , lets go on your logic then shall we ?
A dog that is capable of bringing down a pony is certainly capable of bringing down a child .
Well yes . That is really a non contention.

However , because it HAS does not mean it WILL .

ALL dogs have that potential .

As I asked ,how many of you have DA dogs?
Because on that logic are you not being just very irresponsible but flat out hypocritical?

And please do not try and come back with "oh it isn't the same thing" because it jolly well is.

CM
26-01-08, 02:21 PM
Gosh, sorry. I don't have dangerous dogs ( I would NOT own dangerous dogs, dogs that might be fine with my kids, but not a strangers....etc). Does that mean I can't have an opinion? Despite being devastated by what dangerous GS dogs did to our pup? Despite seeing what some anti-social, over-protective dogs can do?

My brother has a much-loved Korean Hunting Dog (forget the exact breed name). She is pretty scary. I am supposed to be pleased that she "accepts" me - but apparently only because I ignored her. She is meant to be a prime example of the breed. Maybe it is more bloodlines than breeds. Maybe certain lines of the "aggressive" breeds are way way worse, and give a bad name to the breed as a whole.

But I don't want to have to deal with crazy dogs any more than I want to deal with crazy drunk, over-nationalistic louts looking to pick an Australia Day fight. (Sorry, just had to negotiate my way past one on the footpath, swearing and spluttering, wielding a bottle in a brown paper bag, while I was picking up the Japanese takeaway).

teegs1983
26-01-08, 03:50 PM
I don't really want to get involved in this mess, I cant help myself. I Dare ya, I don't think that anyone is saying that your dogs would attack anyone. I can understand where you are comming from. When I owned an American Staffy, I was constantly having to defend her. I realise that animal agression does not equal human aggression (our staffy had that, HATED other dogs LOVED people) but if a stray dog that was known for killing animals mauled your child and you knew it could have been put to sleep wouldn't you feel like a heap of #####. I think that's all people are getting at. I could be wrong but I doubt it, it doesn't happen very often. Ha ha ha.:)

CateH
26-01-08, 04:08 PM
One of the most horrific dog on dog attacks I've heard of was when two greyhounds killed an Italian greyhound in Sydney. They ripped it apart in front of its owners. They were pts.

no argument, I don't care what breed it is, I don't actually care if there's an argument about human vs. animal agression - the dogs that killed the pony should BE PUT DOWN.

That should be the case for any dog that is definetely guilty of killing livestock, dogs or other animals on a property.




http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h5/Cateh/horsebar1.gif

Horse sense - something that horses have that stops them betting on humans.

teetee
26-01-08, 06:05 PM
I can't believe you would kill a dog for killing a chook. That is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. Chooks are good eating, just ask the people who own red rooster! Chooks are PREY, dogs are PREDATORS, you can't expect them to live like happy families that's just ridiculous. Just because some do behave well around prey animals doesn't mean they always will, or that every dog should on pain of death.

Domestication is only people screwing around with genes for a few thousand years, some are mutations but 99% of the genes we are working with are WOLF genes. If you cannot accept the wolf heritage don't get a dog. The expectation that an animal will NEVER act on instinct at any time in it's life is unrealistic at best. If you don't want your kid to get bitten, teach them about canine behaviour and SUPERVISE, if you don't want your chooks to get eaten, FENCE dogs and chooks.

CM
27-01-08, 10:11 AM
I think it's quite odd when people reckon that it is the stray dogs that do the damage. Wandering, stray dogs tend to pretty well socialised, and stay out of trouble (I'm not talking about packs here, just the odd bad dog out looking for a garbage bin or a bitch). It's the ones that over-aggressively "protect" their caring family which I fear much more.

htims
04-02-08, 01:57 PM
media help? go to your local media (newspaper, radio, TV). do you have photos? reply if you ned help how to do this