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Dancer
02-09-08, 12:23 PM
I have some questions!

Anky states in her interviews and in her books that she believes
a TB (Thanks to my CH friends :-) )is the best horse to do dressage on.

A friend of mine who recently went to the olympics for showjumping, was riding a TB, he also tells me that he would never ride a straight Warmblood and you have to have at least half TB in them
for them to be any good.

So why do us Australian dressage riders want to ride a warmblood when they cost so much more, when there are some lovely TB's that are very well priced up for sale ?

And when I look at our dressage talents on a world scale, we are pretty crap, so why are they riding the WB's over a TB ?? Maybe they could save some money on the cost of their horses and invest in oversea's tution?

And how many people can tell the difference between a warmblood and a TB anyway ???

What are the pro's and con's of riding a Warmblood ?

What are the pro's and con's of riding a TB ?


Dancer

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll45/junglegirl_sea/BlackDress.gif

Bats_79
02-09-08, 01:02 PM
Good-onya.

Sorry Dancer - you have misinterpreted Anky's "translation". She doesn't prefer a TB she prefers a "bloodhorse" (that being a horse with hot blood characteristics). Fiery Salinero (for example) has NO tb in at least FIVE generation.

There is no "TB vs Warmblood" there is just the best horse for the job.

I think your "friend" is off the ball completely. There were many MANY horses in the showjumping (including most of the medal winners) who didn't have more than 25% TB in them. The only one of the Australian horses that had 50% TB was KS Genoa.

The characteristics that the TB has given to the warmblood over the past centuries can now be reproduced without the influx of new tb blood (which may or may not be a good thing). TB blood should now be introduced only very selectively.

Dancer
02-09-08, 01:29 PM
WoW Bats, what do you do track their pedigrees down and keep them in your purse for when you might need to review one ? :-)

It was them in the other thread that mislead me re the TB thingy :-)

So why the heck does Anky, not just call Bonfire for what he is, a TB X or a bitza, why create a name like Bloodhorse ???

What is new TB blood Bats ???

I was starting to feel gipped for spending a fortune on a warmblood foal :-)

So what does typical warmblood, blood consist of ?

Clearly I have no idea, but really want to understand this :-)

Dancer

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll45/junglegirl_sea/BlackDress.gif

Bats_79
02-09-08, 01:33 PM
Hi Dancer. I just read my post - glad you didn't take it as a criticism (I did sound a bit harsh but didn't mean to be). Breeding is my thing :P - to bad I can't remember my friends birthdays.

I'll be happy to discuss further with you this evening - have to go now.

Dancer
02-09-08, 02:06 PM
Hahaha, don't feel bad, I definately never took it as criticism:-)

I am very interested in what you have to say about this topic.


Dancer

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll45/junglegirl_sea/BlackDress.gif

MMC
02-09-08, 02:10 PM
This cross bred thing has been getting under my skin for a while now.

So many horses in this country are part TB and marketed as Warmbloods.

Recently I was looking at a horse to buy and the price tag was partly justified by the fact that it was a Warmblood. WTF. Its mother was a TB and his father was 1/2 WB and 1/2 TB. It was only a 1/4 WB!!!

If the roles were reversed I could not register it as a TB. No they have to be pure TB to be in the stud book. Why is it different for Warmbloods.

I know there is benefit in having TB blood in theses horses and the refinement and performance reasons, but that is not my point. My point is the marketing of a part bred horse a a full blooded WB. And people saying this is my Warmblood when it is not a pure bred horse.

Don't get me started on cockerpoodles and Spoodles and Cavoodles. These are not breeds these are cross bred animals.

Ems
02-09-08, 02:11 PM
Hi Dancer as you can tell to my pics i posted i am TB LOVER FROM HELL!!! Unfortunately ha ha ha :)I have always had a love for WB's and been in awe with their ability in the showjumping rings since i was little. I brought myself a WB filly earlier in the year which she turns 1 TODAY!!! The reason for me wanting to go that way was to try and expand my showjumping career but to also introduce myself to the warmblood breed as i am starting this year with one of my TB Mare's and starting to breed my own TB X WB a bitza ha ha ha i think the stature, build and ability of the warmblood adds an extra bonus to the TB's energy, athletisism, and aggility and alround produces a lovely showjumping horse :) well so im hoping :) ha ha ha Down the Track one day i hope to breed from my WB mare possibly to a TB stallion and also a WB stallion i think trial and error will produce me a lovely showjumper but i am sticking with my TB'S and WB crosses and will never ever fault a TB you can only fault what may have been done to him or her on the track :) which is where we come in and un-do the bad that has been done :)


Emily Murray
Far Horizons Lodge-(FHL)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd252/emmiemurray/HONEYHEADCROPSTUNNINGjpg-3.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd252/emmiemurray/GEMMARIBBONCROPjpg-1.jpg

Ems
02-09-08, 02:16 PM
MMC I totally agree for people that breed to sell them on or just selling them on and purposely advertised wrongly that is SO SO unprofessional, underhanded etc i could never sell something under false pretenses let alone you could seriously injure someone if you advertised it as bombproof and it totally wasn't sold sight unseen interstate etc what your gonna end up with horse heading back home at your expense some sellers can only blame themselves.


Emily Murray
Far Horizons Lodge-(FHL)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd252/emmiemurray/HONEYHEADCROPSTUNNINGjpg-3.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd252/emmiemurray/GEMMARIBBONCROPjpg-1.jpg

Zamarie
02-09-08, 02:26 PM
People are not being misleading if they advertise their horse as a warmblood, it is not a warmblood x. It is a hanovarian, or holsteiner, or trakhener x, etc, and should not be advertised as a full hanovarian, or holsteiner, or trakhener etc but if it is not full thoroughbred then it is a warmblood.

Ems
02-09-08, 02:29 PM
I'm a little confused so a TB x WB = a WB is that what your saying? i would say it is a TB x WB there is only 1 type of TB unlike the WB's as you mentioned above there are different breeds of a warmblood holsteiner, trakhener, hanovarian etc a TB is a TB

Emily Murray
Far Horizons Lodge-(FHL)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd252/emmiemurray/HONEYHEADCROPSTUNNINGjpg-3.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd252/emmiemurray/GEMMARIBBONCROPjpg-1.jpg

mindari
02-09-08, 03:03 PM
LOL

a clydesdale to a TB will produce a warmblood.
warmbloods are created by crossing cold (draught) to hot (throughbred)

its no different to a spoodle, its a cross.

once crossbred dogs were given away now they are charging more for the bitzer than a purebred????


Yes some countries have developed them into registered breeds and given them names, ie Holsteiner, Trakener etc

but guess what, just because its bred from parents in those registeries doesnt mean it will automatically superior either.

also in aus they are using the reg sire, but the dam in most cases is either TB or goodness knows what.

again back to the spoodle/davadoodle/labradoodle scenario, the progney could and do throw to whoever, dont know till theyve grown up.

and all the hype that the crossing brings out the best in both breeds is again hype, how many saw Rob Zammit with the cute maltalier with luxating patella, bad heart, bad eyes, umm forget the rest, poor little bugger could only hobble.

yep crossbreds get ALL THE GOOD POINTS. well I for one never thought of the above three as good points?

as for the poodle crosses, if you want a non shedding dog GET AN X Y Z POODLE! Half the crosses will SHED. they will throw to the lab the malt the beagle the watever that does shed.

same for the warmbloods, some have the cold temprement, some warm and some HOT.

if youve got the cold one then get a good set of spurs and maybe a battery or two. LOL




Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur

jumpa
02-09-08, 03:13 PM
There is a reason why WBs are dominating take a look at the best performing horses in the country and the world I dare say you will find most are WBs results speak for themselves at the end of the day!

I love warmbloods and once you have sat on a few well bred WBs you will feel the difference in power, natural jump and movement that they offer. What you have to remember is that WBs are purpose bred to perform in the Olympic disciplines - the are not bred to race like the TB.

I think that our dressage riders are taking the right path and investing in quality WBs that stand a chance to match the international standard lessons only go so far.

Dancer
02-09-08, 03:31 PM
Jumpa when you refer to a well bred WB, how do you describe this? Putting good confirmation aside.

I have ridden my horses out at competitions one being a very solid 17hh TB, a usual comment that I get is. "Oh he is really big and solid WB". I say, "no he is a TB". "Oh he is WB type isn't he". Like what is with that.

I purchased a Hanovarian, but really he is a cross bred bitza. Isn't he? I paid so much money for him though, just because of his apparent breeding. I wanted the tag of him being a Hanovarian so I paid the required price.

A comment I had recently about my mare was, "isn't she a beautiful WB, she must have been expensive", I say, "she is a TB". Then in the next breath, I got asked if she was a rescue TB and did I get her from the doggers :-) Me being me, was amused :-) I said, "actually no she came from the Magic Millions and cost $750K".

I have ridden both, I can't tell any difference in a WB or a TB? I can't even tell them apart when I am looking at a group of well built, muscled horses around the 16.2hh - 17hh.

jumpa
02-09-08, 03:50 PM
Im talking jumping lines.. I describe a well bred WB to be one who has well known performance bloodlines on both dam and sire's side and exhibit the inherent qualities of their breeding.

Well bred WB's are nothing like a x bred bitza.

When a well bred WB moves its like magic, when they jump its like a whole new gear in scope, power and technique that just isnt as common in the good ol TB.

Dont get me wrong there are some fugly WB's out there as in every breed thanks to dodgy breeding practices etc.

I can generally feel a big difference in the movement and jump of a well bred WB vs a TB.

cbz
02-09-08, 04:08 PM
Yes, a WB x TB is NOT a warmblood cross, it is a warmblood. It can be 1/2 TB, 1/4 TB, 1/8 TB and 1/16 TB and it is a warmblood. The warmblood studbooks all (except for the trakehners) recognize TB blood as equal to WB. A WBx is when a WB is crossed with something NOT a TB; i.e. clydie, arab etc. People who say WB x TB show that they don't know much at all about WB breeding.

Why? I don't know but if you can get a fabulous WB by using TBs, good on you! (Nicole Uphoff's Rembrandt was reportedly 7/8 TB although Bats might know if that is true or not).

WBs have been selectively bred for the Olympic disciplines fopr many, many generations now while TBs are only commercially bred for speed, so the likelihood of finding a top performing TB for your Olympic discipline is getting smaller and smaller all the time. But if you know of a TB that moves like Farbenfroh, could you please contact me immediately?:P

The point is, how good is the actual horse? If it is an ugly, bad moving individual it is worth nothing, regardless of the breed. If it is stunning looking with stunning movement, it is worth lots if it is a WB because, like it or not, a lot of local judges give extra marks for the "right breed" (Manhattan, anyone?) and they particularly like the letters (imp) in its name.

DO
02-09-08, 04:19 PM
Bloodlines do not not maketh a horse.

Describing well bred as only bloodlines is just one side of the coin, and the reason why the racing industry gets it so wrong by predominately breeding on bllodlines.

I have seen seriously ugly, ill tempered, poorly conformed and poor moving WB's of what would seem on paper as to be well bred. These horse have also sold for big money on this blood. Personally I wouldnt have gone near.

Breeding is a very tricky game and do it only on bloodlines is tying one hand behind your back.

Conformation and understanding of the weaknesses and strengths of both mare and Stallion and complimenting them to each other is far more important. It is very easy to hide some very serious faults through photos and video. So if your making a breeding decision based on photos and videos, you could be making a big mistake. This is one of the reasons I am still not 100% convinced that frozen semem is the way to go.

Bloodhorse I always use as term of reference to type. IE it of a more bloodhorse type, not that is a TB but of a type.

As WBs v TB, once youve ridden a WB after struggling for years with racetrack rejects you will understand why. This by no means that they are easier, but they are bred and built for the purpose at hand where being bred for speed doesnt always lend itself favourably for the Olympic disciplines.

Bats_79
02-09-08, 04:49 PM
You (in general) make too many assumptions.

Up until 50 years ago the TB was a "breed in progress". Horses could actually get upgraded to the full stud book. Now that is no longer possible. Up until recently it was normal to refer to a horse as a thoroughbred arabian or thoroughbred morgan etc. It meant the horses breeding was true to type and with an extensive pedigree. Now it only refers to the racehorse and the Stud Book's are all closed. If it's not a pure TB it's not a TB.

Warmblood is a generic name given to horses in Europe which are of "warum blut" meaning warm heart. They are neither hot like a TB or Arab nor stolid and phlegmatic like a draught or a common native bred pony (not to be considered a criticism of the modern native breeds).

These horses have been bred for over 1,000 years to suit the purpose of humanity without specialising as draught horses. They have been "light" harness horses and farm animals, war horses - heavy and light cavalry, hunters and then specialist sport horses.

Different areas developed slightly different types depending upon their regional expectations and basic stock types. If the uses for the breed started to change suitable improvement sires were found e.g. a slightly quicker moving horse for cavalry was wanted to the Neopolitan was used (these horses were then used in Spain to adjust the Iberian horse), more speed on the road was required so the Yorkshire Coach Horse was selected.

When the use of the breeds turned from cavalry, transport AND recreation to just recreation the horses needed to be adjusted some more. THEY DID NOT NEED TO CREATE THOROUGHBREDS as they were already available. Instead they wanted to ALTER the current model of horse to have different characteristics. While the term "Improvement sire" is used it wasn't that something was wrong with the breeds it was that the ambitions of the riders were changing and so different characteristics were required. More agility and speed was wanted - in some cases a more sensitive nature and greater endurance. This came from the use of TB's and Anglo Arabs.

These characteristics were introduced like a stone thrown into a lake, a small change here creating a ripple on effect. By carefully adding more new bloodlines and types the general population is changed without destroying the foundation type.

For example: Our stallion Romedio was bred in 1972. He stood 17hh and weighed 700kg when heavy. He had a huge length of croup from the Holsteiner with the high set tail from his Anglo grandsire.

http://www.vgp.com.au/brokeford/pages/Stallions/images/Romedio_stand.jpg
Pedigree
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php
When broken down he carried 49.05% original Holsteiner lines, 38.45% TB and 12.5% Arab.

The jumping stallion Renegade Z has many TB characteristics.

http://www.warmbloodsatstud.com.au/RenegadeZ/Renegadejump.jpg

He comes from the Holsteiner Stamm 7673. His sire Ramiro carries exactly the same Holsteiner / TB / Arab cross as Romedio and he is out of a mare with 12.5% TB blood. Yet this horse shows much stronger TB characteristics.

The warmblood is about blending types with proven performance capabilities over GENERATIONS.

The idea of saying that you get a warmblood by crossing a cold blood with a TB is the same as saying that I'll grab an arabian, an adalusion and a native pony, mix them up and have a TB. It's just plain misguided and if continued its dumb.

mrsbean
02-09-08, 04:52 PM
Well said Bats. :D

Bats_79
02-09-08, 05:00 PM
Mindari - that is a very uninformed and incorrect post. Have you ever read was is written on this forum by people who know about warmbloods. Sheesh.

Rembrandt 24 was sired by Romadour II (grandsire of Rubinstein) out of a mare by Angelo (TB) He carried about 28% TB from his grandsire on the dams side and from about 7 generations away on his sire's side. The same Rittersporn XX :) that Romedio and Renegade Z and that every R-line German horse carries. Rittersporn (Saint Saulge x Molly Clarke by St. Angelo) was the TB sire of the Polish Anglo Arab Ramzes who created the R-line in both Holstein and Westphalia. Except when the Dutch breeders hit an R-Year every warmblood with an R name SHOULD trace back to this stallion.

All the rest of Rembrandt 24's bloodlines can be traced back to 1920's and turn of the century Westphalian's and Oldenburger's.

http://www.dressagedaily.com/photos/historical/Rembrandt-94weg-21.jpg

Rembrandt owed his type in a small way to the TB but mostly to SELECTIVE BREEDING.

cry123
02-09-08, 05:10 PM
That was great Bats!!

I just have a quick question for you. Are there major differences between the warmblood "breeds", i.e differences b/w Holsteiner and Trakehner? Especially with the temperment or does it all come down to the individial horse? eg are the Trakehners more of a "hot" horse compared to the Holstiener? just curious (and sorry if this is a silly question)

Dancer
02-09-08, 05:46 PM
Hey thanks Bats :-) I can see the arab traits in your grey stallion, like the high tail carrage, small ears and chiseled head.

Can you now explain the difference between the purposes of a Hanovarian and a Holsteiner ?

I have observed, again maybe a misguided observation, that the Hanovarians are used more widely in show jumping ?

So then my Hanovarian is a warmblood not a warmblood X. Yes ?

And his natural jumping ability would be, that he is a Hanovarian ?

And for dressage is there a particular type of warmblood then that we should be choosing ?

And in time we will not see TB mares with warmblood certification ?

hilarytims
02-09-08, 06:03 PM
warmbloods are crossbreds, some 'hot' TB blood from many decades ago, some coldblood. Have a a browse through the Holsteiner breeding, for example.

DO
02-09-08, 07:27 PM
Ok the WB is not a pure breed like the Arabian for example.

Now Bats and others may disagree with what Im about to say.

But a WB born in Oz is an Australian Warmblood or would have been until recent times when the Verbands open their registries to areas outside their breeding district.

Historically a Hannoverian was a horse a born in the district of Hannover. It could have an Oldenburg and Westphalien parents, but being born in Hannover it was a Hannoverian. Same with Holsetin, Westphalia, Oldenburg, Rhineland etc.

Times have changed and the almighty dollar and for marketing and sales reasons, predominantly through the American market the regeistries were opened internationally.

This has made the District names now to be referred to as breeds internationally where in actual fact they are still a registry.

In Germany Stallions are quite often recognided by many different Verbands and an Individual stallion may have up to 10 verbands or registries recognising him as a sire and registering his progeny.

Historically districts were of certain type, style or discipline they bred for and still do.

So where is my rambling going, well I guess I am saying that that to be a Hannoverian a horse had to be bred in hannover, these days it open.

I personally feel that all WB born in Oz should Australian Wbs. But I know Im dreaming as none of them can agree on anything.

Bats_79
02-09-08, 07:31 PM
Did you read what was written hilarytims?

The Holsteiner was NEVER a cold blood. A cold blood has been developed in Holstein since 1883 called a Schleswiger. There has never been deliberate cross breeding between this horse and the Holsteiner.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/scheswigerheavydraft/schleswiger3.jpg

The report of an Englishman named Clarke on horse breeding in Schleswig-Holstein, published in 1799, could be considered as a final commentary on this splendid 18th Century. This was a century which had reached it's zenith of culture, sophistication and capriciousness.

Clarke wrote: "It may very well be that in no other part of the world is there a horse which can equal the beauty and excellence of the Holsteiner. The characteristics of this breed are a dark shining colour, a small head, wide nostrils and large dark eyes whose brilliance and limpidity seem to reveal the mettle of these individuals. Apart from beauty, temperament and speed (qualities which have made them famous), these horses are very powerful. The quantity of these horses being exported is indeed proof of their value. They are being sent to Prussia, all over Germany and to France. They represent the reputation of the Kaiser's Cavalry." (Quote: German historian Romedio, Graf von Thun-Hohenstein)

Not mean praise from a man who's land had been breeding TB's for racing for 100 years and the new sport of fox hunting for nearly 50 years. This is obviously NOT a cold blooded draught horse.

:) Cont.... next post

Mona
02-09-08, 08:06 PM
Mindari and HilaryTims I remember a debate about the 'Hot blood x cold blood = warmblood' issue and the myth was thoroughly dispelled. It doesn't make much sense that it would be the case!

Bats, well said.

Bats_79
02-09-08, 09:04 PM
To understand the history of the German breeds you have to have some understanding of German history. In Australia we assume that Germany is OLD. Germany - the nation as we know it - has actually only existed since 1871 - ONLY 30 years longer than Australia. Prior to that there were loosely allied member states and bickering states and states united under one leader and then another.
The first record of horse breeding in the area was conducted by the Cistercian Monks at their monastery in the Haseldorf marshes in 1235. They exported these horses to their monasteries in France. 773 years later this is still the centre of Holsteiner breeding in Germany. Records show that in 1328 horses traded for as much as 50 marks - 1 mark could buy 2 acres of land!

During the 1800's the stallions that were imported from England included the Thoroughbred and the Yorkshire Half-blood (this was a TB x Yorkshire coach horse which was a derivative of the Cleveland Bay). The Yorkshire Coach horse no longer exists. These imported stallions and their offspring from Holsteiner marsh horse mares were also traded across Germany. So the same stallions were impacting Holstein, Hanover, Oldenburg etc. However, the Oldenburg stallion was not found suitable for the Holstein region but up to 25% of stallion at the state stud were from Hanover and at times up to 50% of the stallions in Hanover were of Holstein origin. Holsteiners were also traded with the neighbouring state of Denmark and into the Netherlands and Belgium (just as the famous black & white milking cow was).

When Germany federated it began a huge promotion of its horse breeding to the world. Stallions representing Holstein, Hanover and other regions were sent to the World Fairs in Paris 1900, St Louis 1904 and Buenos Aires in 1910. In 1948 204 Holsteiner stallions, 2 Hanoverian and 11 Trakhener stallions stood at 62 stallion stations across Schleswig Holstein. Im pretty certain a similar proportion stood across Hanover but the greater area would have meant a greater number.

The greatest difference between the Holsteiner and the Hanoverian occurred following the closure of the state breeding centre at Traventhal. The state legislature believed that it would not damage breeding in the region if they sold off the state assets but Hanover, Oldenburg and Rheinland did not follow suit. Holsteiner mare numbers dropped from 9000 in 1960 to 1200 in 1969. The privatised Holsteiner Breeders Federation worked hard to save the breed. Today there are 19,000 Hanoverian mares and Holsteiner numbers have grown back to 7,200.

The Holsteiner has stayed more true to type in that there has been such a small number of mares and quite a lot of in-breeding . The Hanoverian has tended to have a wider variety of types.

Personally I think the difference you find between Holsteiner, Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Westphalian, Brandenburg is more to do with different family bloodlines and traits than breeds. Certainly today the differences relate more to family than anything else. Although the aim of the Holsteiner Breeders Association in Germany is only to produce sound, well conformed, good moving horses for JUMPING were as the Hanoverian has emphasised more for dressage and is now, again focusing on jumping. The successful dressage Holsteiners were all bred to jump but you rarely (if ever) find a horse that is bred for dressage but becomes a successful jumper.

We now breed to Oldenburg, Brandenburg, Hanoverian and Holsteiner stallions but call the progeny Holsteiner bred.
You can pick out things from the breeding programs of any association and say thats what you like or not but the difference isnt really important for Australia. It remains important for Germany because of state level competition e.g. Bundeschampionate in which the breeds of each region compete against each other but it doesnt impact us hugely. It is sad however, that the German Association of Breeders of Holsteiner horses has chosen NOT to take its Stud Book beyond its borders as the Hanoverian one has. But there are alternatives which we are happy to support.

mindari
02-09-08, 09:05 PM
Hi bats
my understanding was the crossing was how they arrived at the warmblood thats what we were told 50 years ago when the term began to be coined, I have seen some lovely horses bred by Hawkesbury Ag college in the 70's that were 1/4 clyde and 3/4 arabian that you couldnt have picked from the imported warmbloods when they began arriving.

Going to the Inglis sales is quite an eye opener, they are all TB's but the variety of types on offer is amazing. some have bone to burn, others so flimsy dont look like they can hold their own weight, some had boof heads, roman noses, dishes u name it its there.

ha breeding is a lottery no matter what breed.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur

Bats_79
02-09-08, 09:10 PM
As to the difference between the TB and the Warmblood? One is bred for running as fast as it can and one is bred for being a riding horse.

Naturally breeding goes wrong a lot of the time. TB doesn't like to run and can't run fast, warmblood thinks its the next best thing to Pharlap and has the tension levels of popcorn in a hot wind.

Possibly if more people bred TB's for riding purposes there would be more "riding type" TB's around. But you are still working against 50+ generations of "gallop fast" compared to 100+ generations of "work with me".

mindari
02-09-08, 09:15 PM
I gather by the silence the Souvanier (think I have the spelling wrong) line of TB's is no longer extant,
when they were around an awful lot of successful hack, dressage and showjumpers were descended from him.

they were purpose bred and very successful.


Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur

Bats_79
02-09-08, 10:04 PM
Souvenir wasn't actually a full TB or if he was all TB he wasn't registered except as an ASH. Don't know of any high level dressage horses that owe their success to Souvenir - the direct progeny weren't the greatest movers. I know the second generation has had success in the jumping ring and the eventing arena but again I don't know anyone who would pick the bloodline for dressage. In the 3rd generation you'd certainly be wanting to breed with a mare line that was good at jumping as well.

I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't breed TB's for sport, just saying that not enough people do to make an impact on the statistics or to make one stallion a stand out success at the moment.

It's hard to find a suitable TB stallion anywhere in the world. The French breeders, who love the TB, are bemoaning the problem of finding that TB stallion that brings positive attributes to the sport horses. How hard is it going to be for Australian's to identify such a horse in anything other than a "hit or miss" manner that is dependent upon sound ex-racehorses ending up in the hands of talented riders. It's a big ask.

mindari
02-09-08, 10:12 PM
even if one was found, there would be no financial incentive to do it. I doubt anyone would pay half what they would be prepared to pay for one that has the warmblood mystique.

the general expectation for anyone buying a TB is it came from the sales, failed racer

fashion is more important than the individual from what Ive seen over the years.


Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur

My Elly May
03-09-08, 12:01 AM
Did Advanced dressage on a "warmblood" mare bred by Cate Wallace. She was 3/4 thoroughbred 1/4 draught, a beautiful mare with a lovely temperament. I always wanted to breed her to a "warmblood" stalliion but Cate said I wasn't to because I could potentially end up with a chunky hunky that wasn't going to be anything. Her advice was to breed back to a TB. I did, I AI'd her to Crown Law but unfortunately we lost the foal, but got to know Erica and Les Taylor quite well over a two year period.

Ended up putting the mare to a 17hh thoroughbred stallion and ended up with a 15hh filly that has some serious attitude when she wants it. Lucky for her she has always had the same home and we have been very understanding and forgiving to her, but I always find it quite amusing that my daughter finds the TB's off the track much easier to deal with. They seem to have much more intestinal fortitude than our home grown horse, she has a zero tolerance for pain so if anything ever goes wrong, she shucks the towel in and will totally give up without even trying.

We have some beautiful thoroughbreds at home, one it particular that has a wonderous spring in his step and is so strong in his stride, just in the early days, and he has a brain to boot, I am sure he will go far, but on saying that, I have some lovely TB mares that I would like to put to a WB (cross though it may be) just to look for that extra spring in the step.

frogfriday
03-09-08, 12:27 AM
Hi My Elly May,

I'm trying to track down the breeding of a Wondaree mare - do you know how I might go about it?

Cheers

ALHannah
03-09-08, 01:13 AM
A VERY intersting thread!
I believe in the old adage, "horses for courses". You can get a TB which exhibits all the traits of a WB...so why be prejudiced just 'cos of its breeding? Doesn't make any sense...
Perhaps we should not be so precious? Maybe the Australian market is all consumed with WBs at the moment, given our newly found (relatively!) access to AI and all the stallions in the world.
Maybe eventually this novelty will wear off, and horses will revert to a more realistic price. Yes, I live in hope!
I have personal experience of horses being sold for money based on their breed. A well trained and conformed TB will be worth "X", but another horse with the same training and all the same requirements, will be worth "Y" just 'cos its a WB.
As long as people keep paying more for a WB, that cycle wil not break and they will always ask more.
I have recently bred a TB mare to a top imported WB stallion. I got the most beautiful filly foal, and I had re-served the mare to the same stallion. Then I offered the mare for sale, in foal. I got hardly an enquiry, even though I said "make me an offer"!....no doubt, I believe, 'cos the mare is a TB. Yet the dressage market wants top WB mares and breeding.
My mare is still on the market, and as a way in to some of the best breeding lines in the world (the grandsire just competed in his third Olympicd!) I think she would be a bargain!
OK...people who want a top competition prospect will no doubt want best bloodlines of both sire and dam. But for the more "average" among us, I think a TB x WB cross may be a viable alternative!
Again, I come back to horses for courses idea...if what you want is cross TB...then go for it!
A.

Dancer
03-09-08, 08:07 AM
Wow, I have learnt so much... Thanks guys :-)

Makes me wonder about some of the WB breeders out there now, I think they are doing the WB's an injustice. I know of breeders who pick up any mare free or cheap, preferably a TB and pop it in foal to the stallion and sell their foals as WB's, which I now know they are, but this is being done just for the bucks, not then for the true purpose that the breed is intended for ! Yes ?



Dancer


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Ems
03-09-08, 09:27 AM
Wow i missed heaps yesterday!! Bats you are so so imformative!! Can i please have your knowledge ha ha ha :)

So my TB mare who never quite made it to the track who i have had since she was 3yr would be a suitable TB to breed with?? I am hoping to put Flo into foal before the end of the year to a WB she too is a TB mare never ever raced as Crisp bred her herself for riding purposes :) and Flo has already had a foal to a WB stallion is she too a suitable mare to also continue breeding with WB's as her yearling is a STUNNER at 2yr :)???? Would that be your thinking??


Emily Murray
Far Horizons Lodge-(FHL)
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Zamarie
03-09-08, 10:07 AM
Very loosely, the hanovarians feature more predominantly in dressage, and the holsteiners feature more predominantly in show jumping.

Your horse is a warmblood. He is a hanovarian x, but not a warmblood x.

Bats_79
03-09-08, 12:07 PM
Okay, TB to Warmblood breeding is still high risk - specially when you use lots of different TB mares but they only breed one or two foals. Statistically the odds for a good foal are less than using a warmblood mare of GOOD breeding.

One of the reason being is that mare lines can be so strong. If you have a TB mare by a great TB broodmare sire - what is it that she is great at producing? Speed, will to win, never give up spirit? These might be great in a racehorse but not necessarily much fun with a dressage horse. If instead she breeds athletic ability, good heart and lungs and clean bone then that would be a good addition to your foal.

Provided that you choose a warmblood stallion with all the right attributes as well.

People complain about the difference in price between warmbloods and tbs. But a warmblood costs a whole heap more to produce for the breeder e.g. some of my mares have FIVE generations of our breeding behind them - that is a very high cost but it also comes with a very high expectation.

You cannot compare the price of something that is produced with high expectations to something that has already been discarded (for whatever the reason). Certainly the "high expectation" horse might not live up to those expectations and the "discard" might turn its hand to something new but that is up to the judgement and the ability of the purchaser - it has no bearing on the value to the seller.

It is those expectations that must be justified. If you think a "purpose bred" warmblood is too highly priced as the seller why they want so much for it. If the answer is "because that's what I can get" well, either pay up or go away. If the answer is something you can relate to - mum did this, brother did that, it's done this etc - then either find a horse with the same qualities at a cheaper price, pay up, or use your own abilities to create the same situation for yourself.

My young warmbloods are hardly priced above cost and some below but I can never compete with the price of tb's discarded from the racing industry. We also don't breed with full TB mares or stallions anymore but we do keep up the level of TB that we think is appropriate. E.G. I have a 4 yo that I hope to sell for eventing. His father was 25% Hol, 75% TB as was his dam. So this horse is 25% Holsteiner and 75% TB from BOTH sides. This is what I call purpose breeding and this horse is a WARMBLOOD - it's not a cross bred.

Ems
03-09-08, 02:20 PM
Bats thank you very much. Honey has superb TB breeding lines hence why my dad wants to put her to a TB stallion and i don't ha ha ha :) I want her nature, confirmation and attitude to come out in my foals.

One day down the track i'll be able to use my WB filly to breed with once she is older :) i have to hold off just a little while she's just turned 1 :) My WB filly is from Silverhills farm by Belcam Graphic.

Flo will be our number 1 broodmare as im not a BREEDER as per say but wouldn't mind having one every year or every 2 years see how it pans out but im not breeding in big numbers to purposely sell them on im breeding them for myself :)

Im such a sook i'm terrible when it comes to selling horses i can't bare to part with them :)

Thanks again Bats :)


Emily Murray
Far Horizons Lodge-(FHL)
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jumpa
03-09-08, 04:50 PM
Dancer you certainly make a lot of generalisations dont you.

See i would call the breeders you describe there as a backyard breeder.

True breeders put so much blood sweat and tears into what they do they do not deserve to be lumped in with the idiots who think if its got 4 legs and a uterus its worth breeding.

cityhorse
03-09-08, 10:06 PM
Hey Dancer,

I wanted to send you an email but couldn't find a way to do that so I have poked my nose in here.

I just wanted to let you know that I took my mare to that NADEC show that I told you about and she was really good. She had one big shy at some kids that appeared suddenly from behind a mound of dirt, but apart from that she was great.

Thanks for your advice and support.

Cityhorse.

Jacks
03-09-08, 10:41 PM
Some of the posts on this thread gave me abit of a giggle.

Our colt OUT OF A TB mare just won Hanoverian Foal of the Year, beating over a hundered foals nationwide, many out of 'full' australian bred wbs or imported 'wb' mares.

http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/cgi-bin/tve/displaynewsitem.pl?20080501hhsachampfoal08.txt


We are very pleased with the quality of our foals out of our TB mare and will continue to utilise her influence in our breeding program. However, a quality TB mare is the key.

Bats_79
03-09-08, 11:19 PM
C'mon Jacks - a bit more input than that is required!

What if that lovely De Niro colt had been a filly? I know you've kept some nice fillies but what about that one - what would your plan have been? Would you have kept such a filly and then taken the risk of breeding it to an "unknown" TB stallion or would she be going to a "known" champion warmblood.

In the first case (the TB mare) were you taking a little risk when breeding with this mare or did you have good reason to trust that she would breed true?

For example - we took lots of risks with TB mares (and some Anglos, ASH's and the odd crossbred) when we started breeding 35 years ago. Now I can count on one hand the TB lines that WORKED for us and are still strongly represented in the mare herd today. In hindsite these mares had BRILLIANT pedigrees for breeding warmbloods (we just didn't know for sure back then).

But pick a TB stallion from a catalogue today (I know there are a few) or a mare from the sales (and once again there will be the odd one) and expect to get better from her than OUR warmblood mares - I'm not confident about that at all.

Dancer
04-09-08, 08:20 AM
Hey that is fantastic Cityhorse :-) I will email you with an upcoming dressage day near you:-) I will do this sometime today.


Dancer

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Jacks
04-09-08, 09:47 AM
Hi Bats
We have bred this mare back to de niro and are hoping like crazy for a filly. If the filly this season is as good as we expect her to be, she will be retained as a potential broodmare. I would bred her to a world class warmblood. However, my intention is to have no less than 1/8th tb blood from that line. I like the refinement and elegance XX blood gives to a modern sporthorse.

No I do not think I was taking a risk with this particular mare as she has produced 2 lovely foals for us previously. I guess there was some risk with the first foal we produced, but that is true of any maiden mares. She received over 80% in her AWHA and HHSA classification, so I gained some confidence there... BUT proof is in the progeny as to whether or not she would pass on her quality. My only gripe with this mare, is that I wish she was a little bigger. She is just on 16hh.

I am not convinced that a 'wb' ( i use the term loosely here) mare will produce better progeny than a TB mare. It all comes down to the quality of the mare in question. I have seen some bloody lousey wb broodmares and some bloody nice TB mares.

Would I predict that an imported state Premium mare would produce a better dressage horse than a TB mare? - Yes. The imported mares have generations of proven breeding and the lines should be fairly reliable for type... but thats a whole different topic.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that the QUALITY TB broodmare should not be viewed as a second class WB mare... cos there are times when she will produce a foal that ticks all the boxes and is declared international class.:-)

Dancer
04-09-08, 09:59 AM
I just looked at your website Jacks :-)

My favourite is the De Niro X Pricilla foal :-) Not sure of sex, but is just beautiful :-)

Dancer

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cbz
04-09-08, 10:11 AM
Couldn't agree more. Carbine, who stands at Jaybee is a Hannoverian but he is by Carbid who is by Cor de la Bryere which is a very famous and prominent Holsteiner bloodline (although Cor de la Bryere was a selle francais - but that's a different story:D )

Jacks
04-09-08, 10:29 AM
You have very good taste Dancer! Thats De Lite, he is the Hanoverian Foal of the Year!

We are hoping his full sister will be born first week of December.:-)

Dancer
04-09-08, 11:00 AM
Yaay for me :-)

He is truly beautiful :-)

He is the type of horse that I like, ssooo when you get tired of looking at his sweetie face, he can get popped on a truck to
Qld :-) He looks like he can move?

I see what you mean about the cross. I bought my little WB from a photo when he was just a few weeks old , I loved him from first sight. So I had him and his mum put on a truck and sent to me, he is growing beautifully, tall, elegant and very big elevated movement, he has good self carriage and is a natural jumper. I had to negotiate to buy his mum so I could bring him home, didn't even know what she was to start with. Turned out his mum is a TB and dad a WB, the mum is a nice looking well bred TB, with lovely movement and nice and kind, well most of the time.

De Lite, reminds me of Hamish and Andy's afternoon De Lite :-)

Jacks could you give me some advise re the Hanovarian Tour 2009? I want to enter my boy.

Dancer

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DO
04-09-08, 11:12 AM
"Couldn't agree more. Carbine, who stands at Jaybee is a Hannoverian but he is by Carbid who is by Cor de la Bryere which is a very famous and prominent Holsteiner bloodline (although Cor de la Bryere was a selle francais - but that's a different stor )"

Interesting you mention Carbine.

He is a very much un-appreciated Stallion in my opinion.

I have a Carbine, and boy what a talent.

I think Crabines problem is that he produces alert interested horses and most riders in this country cant cope with this as they need the dead quiet plodders who never questions or reacts.

But what you said is typical of the blood of most Stallions and has always will be.

Due to the introduction of frozen semen, the boundaries have opened and the Breeding districts seem some irrelevant these days, to what they were 30 years ago.

I personally think organisations like the Hannoverian Society of Australia are purely for marketing in the elitist ranks to those whom a name, bloodline, prefix or Society mean more to them than the horse they are sitting on.

Ems
04-09-08, 12:23 PM
I'm with you Dancer!! Jacks that De Niro X Pricilla foal is absolutely stunning!! I am so in love i knew i shouldn't have looked at that website now.... look what its done to me made me a drooling idiot :)

(em pushes her jaw closed)

Well im very very excited about our first prospect! Does anybody have any thoughts on Anton as i can't keep my eye off of him!!
http://home.austarnet.com.au/tmclark/MECWEB~2/Anton.html



Emily Murray
Far Horizons Lodge-(FHL)
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Dancer
04-09-08, 12:51 PM
That foal is hot isn't he :-)

Are you looking for stud?

Okay, I had a peep at Anton. He is nice. My preference though when it comes to a horse is a more athletic looking horse, I also like a horse with more predominant features. If you want me to be very honest in my thoughts, I think that big grey you have is a better looking horse.

But that is just what I like, I really like the hot foal type of horse:-)

Dancer

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Ems
04-09-08, 02:07 PM
mmm pitty that i like him!! Im still looking i may even try AI with my honey bunny and live with Flo she hasn't had any sucess with frozen or chilled in the past so we'll see how we go


Emily Murray
Far Horizons Lodge-(FHL)
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Bats_79
04-09-08, 02:18 PM
What do you want to breed EMS?

I do not understand the stud fees being charged in Australia.

IMHO there is no way that an unproven 5yo (he's not an approval or test champion after all) is worth $2,200 stud fee, even if he has impressive bloodlines.

Yet everyone brings in stallions and stands them for $2,000+. The only young horses that are 1,000 euro+ in Europe have at least won something in the young horse area.

I think that people are taking advantage of the fact that the VET COSTS associated with frozen are so high - the semen is actually much better value than the local horses.

When Renegade Z came to Australia his first season fee was only $1,100 and now it is still less than $2,000 and he has done all his tests and is Zangerheide approved.

Ems
04-09-08, 04:34 PM
Bats thank you :) i am wanting to breed showjumpers for myself!!

I totally agree with you a LOT of the stallions i have looked at still haven't even been to A show let alone done a full show season/circuit, so how do they know exactly how good they are going to be? Is that fare?? I don't think its fare on either the horse or people wanting to breed from them. How can you put expectations on a horse that hasn't been given the chance to prove himself first??

Is there any particular stallion that you may suggest i should look at for jumping?? I have actually been looking at a lot of the frozen seimen but i have heard mixed responses on frozen??

don't tell dad but i spent half the bloody day looking at Imported stallions :) ha ha ha


Emily Murray
Far Horizons Lodge-(FHL)
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opensky
04-09-08, 09:02 PM
Ems,
http://equestrian.cyberhorse.com.au/cgi-bin/tve/displaynewsitem.pl?20080722aurumwhy.txt

Jumping Stallion definitely worth a look.

http://www.aurumperformancehorses.com.au/performance.html for evidence

Regards

Jacks
04-09-08, 09:59 PM
Dancer - you can read all about the Hanoverian Horse Society on their website. There are details of their annual tour there.

http://www.hanoverian.org.au/

EV De Lite is now living with his new family, the Welshes in Kennedy's Creek Vic. He is such a good boy, doing everything right for them and they adore him. All our colts are sold, so its very satisfying for me to see them go to such terrific people who are going to give him every opportunity to be the best horse he can be.

I totally agree with Bats re service fees in Australia, they are ridiculously high and in most cases very overpriced. I am sure more people will be looking at frozen semen as a very real option to obtain better, fully licensed stallions in Europe.

Many of the imported stallions standing in Australia are not licensed and you can purchase frozen semen from their licensed sires for half of what they are asking for services fees here in Australia

hilarytims
05-09-08, 12:00 AM
Have a look at the Holsteiner stud book/history

LindaH
05-09-08, 12:12 PM
Hopefully we are getting better quality frozen semen in Australia now. We tried frozen a few times several years ago and spent a lot of money for NO result. While I would love a frozen foal from one of the OS stallions, at least going chilled from an Aust. stallion gets foals on the ground.
Having said that, if my tax cheque is big enough I would love to put a Swarovski in my Grand Kavalier mare !:9

Ems
05-09-08, 12:30 PM
any thoughts??

http://www.elitefrozenfoals.com/check-in.htm

http://www.elitefrozenfoals.com/monte-bellini.htm

http://www.elitefrozenfoals.com/stalypso.htm

http://www.elitefrozenfoals.com/chico-boy.htm

http://www.elitefrozenfoals.com/cashman.htm

http://www.laconafarm.com/horse.php?id=22&src=stallions&type=1

Thank you LindaH i was thinking maybe i might try it just once and see how the result turns out. But wont go making big plans for frozen but would love to give it a go :)




Emily Murray
Far Horizons Lodge-(FHL)
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Jacks
05-09-08, 02:31 PM
I think overall the quality of semen being imported to Oz has improved. However, there is still semen for sale here that just does not work or the chance of a pregnancy is so slim its not worth the effort. My advice to first time frozen semen users would be to do your homework and select stallions who have progeny here on the ground. Your mare also needs to be a good candidate and a specialist vet strongly recommended. Some frozen stallions fertility is almost as good as chilled and have excellent strike rates.

Don't be afraid to ask other breeders or semen suppliers what a stallions success is like. Everyone wants you to achieve a pregnancy so its easy to acquire information.

LindaH
05-09-08, 02:38 PM
It's difficult isn't it. If a stallion freezes well, then over time there are plenty of progeny in OZ, and you can often get the genetics locally. For newer or more difficult stallions there is nothing by them here, so it's back to the frozen lotto.
I did forget to mention our only 2 frozen 'successes'. One foal died shortly after birth and our Don Schufro filly, while absolutely fantastic, took 4 doses to get the mare in foal!

cjrintoul
05-09-08, 03:17 PM
I have an interesting question after reading all the carry on above about cross bred/ not cross bred etc etc.

What actually consitutes a warmblood? The German verbands obviously and the Dutch, Danish and Swedish Warmbloods I suppose but does a Selle Francais, Irish sport horse, lippizaner, lusitano, PRE etc count. I corrected my sister when she started calling a Selle Francais a French warmblood because she was having trouble pronoucing it but I suppose in a way she was right. There were certainly as many non german derived horses at the olympics as there were german derived.

Bats_79
05-09-08, 05:01 PM
The Celle Francais is a "warmblood type horse from France" but the translation would be more "French Saddle Horse". The Europeans only use the term warmblood as a general description but the Dutch KWPN is Koninklijk Warmbloed Paardenstamboek Nederland (Royal Warmblood Horse Studbook of Netherlands).

I don't think that the word "warmblood" is necessarily the best thing to attach to a breed name. The Selle Francais is a "Saddle" horse, the ISH is a Sport Horse. The Lusitano and Andalusian are both? under the new label of PRE - Pura Raza Espaola.

We register our horses as ISSA - International Sporthorse Society of Australia (Holsteiner bloodlines). Suits me just fine.

legs_are_best
06-09-08, 08:44 PM
Very interesting topic.

umm Bats just one question

Literally translated "warum Blut" means "Why Blood"

Wouldn't warm heart in German be "Warm Herz"?

and Warmblood would be "Warm Blut"

Sorry im just being picky about the German

legs

legs_are_best
06-09-08, 08:51 PM
Very interesting Topic.
I have learnt alot about warmblood breeding

Just one question Bats

Literally speaking "Warum Blut" translated to english is "why blood"

Wouldnt "warm heart" be "Warm Herz"?

And warmblood would be "Warm Blut"?

Sorry

legs

Bats_79
06-09-08, 10:50 PM
Heart as in spirit or personality. The same way we would say somebody is good-hearted but might mean that they are caring or generous.

The point being that we are not talking about "hot + cold = warm" rather, it is "warm" or it isn't.