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Goldilox
06-03-04, 07:46 PM
A horsey friend recently informed me that there is a trend happening in the favour of pally WB's particularly in the dressage scene.

Just wondering what everyone else thinks?

Apart from the beautiful Jaybee stallion, I can't say I've really seen much out there.

I'm very curious!

MandyE
07-03-04, 04:43 PM
Absolutely Goldilox!!!!

I have just bred my first pally/wb foal, a gorgeous colt by Aladdin (imp Oldenburger, by Alabaster - a 3/4 brother to Jaybee Alabaster), out of my little home bred stockhorse mare who has a double cross to Claredale Champagne Charlie and also carries Souvenir.

It's taking a little time, but in the next few years you should see lots more palomino warmbloods out and about in competition. Our little bloke is 11 weeks old, and is going to his first show next weekend at Werribee.

Having been a devoted palomino owner for over 20 years now, it has been my dream for a long time to breed and compete on palomino coloured warmbloods in dressage. This is our first foal, and we're so lucky to have hit the jackpot first time, as we think he may be stallion material - at least my husband hopes so! - time will tell but I've got my fingers crossed as I have five lovely chestnut mares waiting for him when he's old enough! Two TB's, two warmbloods, and one part-arab.

Jaybee Excellent, alias Mr B, is just beautiful, and I'm very excited to have just had a positive scan yesterday to him for my part-bred arabian mare. I went up to visit Jen and Mr B a couple of weeks ago, and his foals are really lovely, Jen is so lucky to have him. Have a look at Jen's website, [www.karizmah.com] and click on the Foals link to see his babies.

EPL also has some coloured warmblood babies, both palomino and paints. Cat at EPL has a beautiful pally filly by Jaybee Alabaster, making her a cousin to my colt! This filly I think is, from memory (hope I'm right Cat!) out of Lawes Ellegant, who is the mother of Mr B.

As far as I know, Loeky Young of Greenhill stud in Victoria was the first to breed a palomino warmblood, back in 1983 she bred a filly by Valuta. I wanted to buy her, but she wasn't for sale at the time. Since then there has been the odd palomino breeder in Victoria popping out a warmblood pally here and there, but suddenly there seems to be a huge interest in them from a dressage point of view.

My long term goal is to breed/buy a cremello warmblood colt to stand at stud, but that's going to take time as I'm very serious about quality and temperament.

I'd be interested to hear any other views on this subject!

If anyone has a quality, tall cremello mare (15.2+) they'd be willing to lease out, please let me know!

Go Pally Warmbloods!!!! :7 :7

Cheers, Mandy

Laverne
22-03-04, 01:56 AM
Unfortunately, I think the initial enthusiasm to have horses available in this category will mean some breeders will compromise the quality, just to have stock available for sale. And before I get pounded by others, I am not saying anything that refers to the above named horses or breeders, I am just making comments as a breeder and rider of dressage performance horses myself. Like it or not, there are a number of sub-standard mares (and stallions) used to try and produce a certain colour, and this is at the loss of soundness and performance. You only have to look at some of the mares used, and if they were solid coloured, would their solid coloured progeny be any good? Or would genuine competition riders even be interested in viewing the stock?

There are some ethics involved in trying to produce a set standard of horse, and in this day and age, it's a lot of work to breed a performance horse that is conformationally correct, well tempered and sound enough to go the distance. And if you add a set colour into the equation as well, the odds are even greater. I personally love the look of a good coloured palomino horse, but once it starts to move, I don't see the colour anymore, I only see the movement.

However, there is a market for palomino warmblood and there is also a trend with the tobiano warmbloods as well. I just hope there is a market from both sectors, for the progeny that don't make the grade.

ernie
22-03-04, 10:30 AM
Oh dear .. I do hope this isn't true!! It's hard enough to breed a decent warmblood of any colour, let alone try and make it a palomino. I have to agree with you Laverne.

As a dressage judge, I've seen a number of wishy washy so-called "palomino" horses competing. Most of them part-bred Arabs, and the movement they possessed (or lack of it) was because of their breeding, not because of their colour. I suppose a 17 hand warmblood that happened to be palomino would be ok to look at provided it had top conformation and movement. The judges are going to be looking very hard indeed at them. Most people I know think it's a very ordinary colour, simply because most palomino horses are ordinary horses that have been bred for colour not conformation, and they show it.

Let's hope that most breeders opt for breeding with sound, quality horses with proven performance records in the dressage field, rather than stockhorse/quarterhorse/Arab crosses that have shown absolutely no propensity for dressage whatsoever. Let's also hope that the buyers don't go silly over a pretty palomino horse instead of a quality brown one. Otherwise the standard of dressage performance horses in this country can only deteriorate.

Goldilox
23-03-04, 02:33 AM
I can't understand why, if there is indeed a trend occuring, why people aren't breeding from better stock. There are some lovely international stallions available (cremellos and pallys) rather than using the arab/stockhorse/quarterhorse cross as you said ernie. Is there a reason for this or is it b/c it's just 'too easy' to settle for 2nd rate bloodlines from here and hope that it turns out ok?

Prado
23-03-04, 04:54 AM
Mmmmm...interesting topic. Personally, any horse pertaining to be a 'warmblood' that was pally, cremello, paint or appy I would bypass. Purely based on the fact that there 'pedigree' would be doubtful.

What distresses me the most is that over several hundreds of years, the germans have keep tight stud books for the sole purpose of breeding a superior performance horse, based on pedigree, conformation, temperament etc - NOT based on colour preferences. We, in Australia, seem to think that we can now add a splash of colour and have the attributes (colour) incorporated and still retain the quality that the Germans have developed. Highly doubtful it can be done!

Really at the end of the day - it boils down to personal preference, however for serious, and I do mean SERIOUS competition, I dont think these 'colour bred' introductions will make the grade. Somewhere in their background is a merky ring-in. Sure, maybe one horse will make the grade eventually, but will it have enough 'gene power' to reproduce that winning performance streak (freak of nature Versus sound genetic performance breeding)

Good luck to these people who do have a preference to them. When they breed a horse of colour, they begin with a clean canvas and it is up to the handling and training as to what they eventually have under saddle.

Just my two cents worth anyway.

Centaur
23-03-04, 06:03 AM
Hear, hear Prado, ernie & Laverne. It's a current trend that irks the beejeesus outta me!

MandyE
23-03-04, 03:01 PM
Prado, what is interesting about your post, is your view that the Germans do not allow colour. WRONG!!!! Coloured warmbloods, both palomino and broken colours, are well accepted in Germany and other European countries.

My colt was quite well received at the AWHA show last weekend, and one of the judges was a visiting Hannoverian classifer from Germany. He awarded my colt 8's for type and movement, and he was also awarded 8 for movement from one of the other judges.

My 'stockhorse' mare just happens to be palomino, she is also a lovely type of mare with good conformation and movement, and is quite well performed in dressage, and has a very good style and ability over a fence. Her stockhorse breeding is predominantly thoroughbred. Her son is BY a warmblood stallion - I make no claim that the mare carries any warmblood breeding at all. The colt is still a warmblood, as his sire is an imported Oldenberger with generations of proven breeding.

Remember, only one parent is required to be palomino to have a 50/50 chance of a palomino foal when mated with a chestnut parent, therefore any foal born from a good quality palomino mare by a chestnut warmblood stallion is no less a 'warmblood' than a warmblood/tb cross, in my view.

I will agree that there are lots of 'yukky', washed out, creamy coloured palomino horses around. These are mainly smaller galloway/pony types. There are also lots of good coloured larger palominos from carefully bred bloodlines which are well respected and indeed sought after, and these, for my purposes, are of thoroughbred origins. Claredale Champagne Charlie was registered AJC as well as stockhorse, and was a very prepotent sire and it is possible to see his stamp on many horses two or even three generations removed. Palomino breeders many years ago learnt the folly of breeding 'just anything' purely to breed colour, and these days most breeders are very careful about choosing their breeding stock for quality over colour. Quality, temperament and movement is foremost, colour is just the icing on the cake.

First and foremost when I select my mares and the stallions I put them to, I ask myself, If the resultant foal from this mating is a chestnut, will it still be good enough? If the answer is likely to be no, then I will not go ahead with the mating.

The other breeders that I mentioned in my original post, have the same philosophy as myself. We want to breed quality horses that will have a future regardless of their colour.

I'm not biting back here, as I realise none of you are making a personal attack on my post, and my concerns are the same as yours - NEVER sacrifice quality for colour!

Just as an aside, I feel that my colt would have scored higher with the two Australian judges last week had he NOT been palomino, lol!

If any of you are interested in some GERMAN coloured horses, please visit this site: [www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de] Enjoy! :-)

Cheers,

Mandy

ernie
23-03-04, 04:13 PM
I don't know where to begin. Anything I say now will be taken as offensive and it certainly isn't meant that way. You just have to accept that I am a breeder of (hopefully :-) ) performance sporthorses and as such I feel there is so much at stake here.

I try very hard to breed for the top end of the performance (dressage) sphere. Having been doing this for a number of years - using top mares, either anglo, thoroughbred or warmblood, and using frozen semen from the very best sires in Europe, I have managed to breed one ONE horse that's made it to Grand Prix dressage. That's how hard it is.

And this leads me to believe that unless you use the VERY BEST bloodlines that are available from Europe .. and not just good bloodlines but also horses proven to be sound through their training .. and then you have to have the very very best mares here and seriously not cute little cremellos that'll give you a pally every time ... you're breeding dog food. Even breeding from the very best and to the very best you will most of the time get just average .. your Adult Rider type horse. And no offence meant to adult riders either.

If you are seriously trying to breed top notch Olympic level dressage horses and if colour comes into your mind for even half a millisecond then you're on the wrong tram.

Laverne
24-03-04, 12:36 AM
I don't think you're coming across as offensive ernie and although we're only very small scale breeders, I'm enjoying the varied input offered in this post. Firstly, you should be sincerely congratulated for breeding your GP horse. I can't imagine anything more thrilling than succeeding in the sciences of firstly producing a future champion, and then nurturing and training it though the ranks to the top level. In fact, it would be very, very interesting to know how many Australian bred horses have actually gone right through to GP level in dressage. (and not counting those that are really struggling to get 45% or 50% in a GP test either.)

However, in all fairness, Mandy hasn't said that the horses she is breeding are aimed at such lofty heights, so perhaps her business plan is geared towards another area? I think there is a Palomino Association or Society (??) which is well supported, so it would be nice to see something else other than the typical palomino that is either a QH or part Arab. (and there's NOTHING wrong with either of these breeds.) And a lot of the adult riders here in Victoria just want something reliable and versatile to have as their friend, and I'm sure they would love a real golden coloured palomino. :-)

The interesting thing with aiming for colour, as I mentioned earlier, is the solid coloured progeny. The problem then, is due to the high costs borne by the breeder just to get the foal to 'x' age, you have a problem on your hands. This is where you often see a foal or young horse advertised, by a well known sire, out of a nothing mare, but the breeders use the sire as the selling point, to justify the ridiculous sale price. Even now, in Australia, the market is flooded with text book bred foals and young horses, AI from stunning, o/s proven performance stallions and out of top quality, proven performance mares ... so where does the solid coloured (reject) progeny fit in here?

We are likewise breeding for a specific 'type' of horse with our small stud, only aiming at the lower to mid-range market, and that in itself is hard enough without someone adding in a preference for colour. However, that does not mean we sacrifice the quality of either the stallions or mares used, it just means that the 'type' we are breeding are not specifically performance bred to compete in higher level dressage, and would look obviously out of place in such an arena and be appropriately marked by discerning judges.

I think from memory, the palomino stallion owned by the other lady is bred more for show jumping ??? so perhaps it's a little premature to assume Mandy's aim is for Olympic level dressage. We have a huge market in the adult riding area, where riders generally don't have as huge a purse or high level aspirations as our elite riders. In fact, there may be time when a club is formed that is solely palomino's !!! :-)

DD
24-03-04, 12:38 AM
Yes Germany does have alot of colored WB's. They are also alot further removed from their non WB breeding than the colored WB's in Aust. And yet when you look at videos of these stallions they are still only average horses (they are not horrible just not brilliant) and not as good as many of the solid colored WB's. Until I see a colored WB that is as good as the best of the solid colored WB's I wont be breeding to one or with one. If the horse is not up to scratch as a normal colored horse then it is not up to scratch as a colored horse either (speaking in dressage terms here as jumping is a completely different field. Some of the colored WB's do excell in jumping).

Centaur
24-03-04, 02:08 AM
Again, I agree with the above 3 postees on this subject. Mandy, I had a look at the site that you suggested. Some nice enough horses there BUT ...looking at the bloodlines there were none that had any horses of note in their pedigrees. And I'm talking horses that have produced top level progeny or even been top level themselves ( I think there was one exception and he was a solid colour). So, as ernie said, what happens to these solid foals, bred to be a specific colour but turn out 'wrong'? They have no special parentage to boast of, so no incentive for purchasers looking for performance horses to buy (unless of course they are sold off for doggers money, which I know one Paint horse stud does).
Now whilst there is nothing wrong with breeding just a decent riding type, suited as a good all rounder or adult riding club type, I really object to people inferring they are breeding coloured "Performance Horses" when none of the parents have 'performed' or produced performers in the true sense of the word. Doing well at local dressage is no indicator of potential GP talent. And to be quite honest I have yet to see a spectular moving palomino that I would consider good enough to put to a really top stallion. But I admit there could be one around somewhere!
At this stage I think it is little more than a gimmick that will attract the average rider wanting something a bit different.

Centaur
24-03-04, 03:36 AM
Oh and I almost forgot...I am in no way insinuating that a stud will deliberately use an inferior mare BUT if one advertises that one breeds a particular colour of horse then it must be assumed that colour takes precedence over many things that may otherwise exclude the breeding of that horse. If you have a mare that has a spectaular colour but is cow hocked, or pigeon toed, or whatever then the temptation would be there to breed anyway and hope the stallion cancels out the fault. Now this happens with solid colours of course, but the virtues that consider you to overlook the faults may be better suited to the performance horse i.e a mare that has amazing movement but is pigeon toed. Colour means nothing at all other than, it's a nice colour!

Cate
24-03-04, 04:16 AM
I think you will find Gwens Stallions are all licenced & tested in Germany, and some of the bloodlines are very nice... there are some lovely Trak lines in her WB's which have been influential in Hann.'s. There are also some nice juming lines there too. That they happened to be coloured (or not) is only part of them.
Olympic level horses are not the be all or end all, some of those horses are truely professional only horses (and sometimes they struggle with them), and you will notice that the majority of horses out there are ridden by adult amatuers. Most people are unable to ride the huge trots that some of the top level horses have, nor can they deal with the sensitivity that often also accompanies them.

Kassie
24-03-04, 04:20 AM
Off the colour topic.... there are plenty of mares out there who have great bloodlines, and conformation that get bred but shouldn't be because they have shocking temperments.... but because colour is obvious it seems to get picked on :-?

Centaur
24-03-04, 04:48 AM
Don't get me wrong Cate, I'm sure the bloodlines are nice and the horses certainly look nice. Nice, not spectacular tho'. And sure, that's ok too. Couldn't agree more that Olympic horses are not the be all and end all. Even a good GP horse is not necessarlily a good International prospect. And of course there is a market for the 'nice' horse because most of us are just nice or mediocre riders. I agree with everything you've said there. What I'm saying is that there is a tendancy for people who are breeding these horses of colour to wax lyrical on the 'performance' aspect, and there are some pretty ordinary horses being used for breeding (not saying these stallions are)because colour is important to the coloured horse breeder above all things otherwise wouldn't you just advertise yourself as a horse breeder???. These horses are not being advertised as just nice horses, they are being advertised as COLOURED. It doesn't just "happen to be a part of them" it's their foremost claim to fame and the reason behind the marketing of them. If they were bay, black or brown they would have much more competition for their services as there are much better stallions out there than these guys. (I'm sure there's worse too!). Not saying it's wrong, just saying that we need to keep in perspective as to what a horse's speciality and vocation in life is!

Vision
24-03-04, 06:04 AM
After sitting and reading many of the replies on this thread, I wonder if seeing outside of the square is a problem. I do agree that breeding purely for colour is not best practice, but how many mares are currently being bred to a particular stallion, becuase he is in fashion!! Whether or not he throws nice progeny doesn't seem to make a difference. Would there be a discussion if one particular "in fashion" stallion threw a coloured foal - would that foal immediately be tainted because of colour, or loved because of sire?
If a breeder can produce a quality horse, and this doesn't mean GP dressage, or World Cup showjumping, should that horse be labelled as second rate, just because it is coloured and be unworthy as a mount?

We must face facts, both as breeders and as riders, we have very few riders capable of riding a world class horse. If it's coloured, that is not going to stop a world class rider accepting the ride on it, because as many people would know, world class horses are not bred every day.

I think we need to start looking outside of that safe square we all tend to stay within. Any respectable breeder will always ensure that the correct stallion is chosen for their mares. If we produce colour we may breed a few rogues, we may not, but if the temperament, confirmation and type is correct - then we are one step ahead of where we were yesterday and one step closer to breeding the next world class horse.

ernie
24-03-04, 06:19 AM
I'm not sure that you're not missing the point, vision. Read Centaur's last post because that says it all I think.

It is hard (very hard indeed) to breed a GOOD warmblood performance horse. Why use a stallion that is being marketed as a COLOURED warmblood as opposed to a stallion that is being marketed as a well-performed warmblood?

The stallions on the Falkenhorst site are all very nice horses, but they don't take the breath away, and there are plenty of bay or brown or chestnut stallions that have performed, that are throwing well-performed youngsters, that DO take the breath away. They're the ones who should be considered worthy sires for your well-performed mares because it gives you a chance of breeding a halfway decent sporthorse foal.

Arrgh - just repeating myself I think. Going round in circles.

vision
24-03-04, 06:41 AM
Sorry Ernie,

Missed Centaurs quote, but definitely agree there too.

When people speak of breeding, the word "dressage" factors heavily in the equation. If a horse does not move, or conform to a "dressage" ideal, then the horse just doesn't cut the mustard. I am generalising, but this is what I hear nearly every breed show I go to. I think people need to be aware that there are many other codes or equestrian sport and what is defined as ordinary in one code may be a world champion in the next, regardless of colour or breed.

After watching Mandy's boy at the AWHA show, I agree that he may have been marked down by the Aussie judges, due to colour and maybe not having that extravagant overly flashy movement out front (which others had, but weren't quite getting there with their behinds). And by know means is this young boy ordinary, in my own opinion. If he has been bred for jumping as one previous post said, and he was judged as a showjumping performance horse, I think he would have been hard to fault. I also think that he will make a lovely dressage horse, if that is his chosen path. So, to have a lovely boy such as Mandy's called "second rate" I once again believe that we are frightened to look and venture outside of the square, for fear of being chastised. What will people say, if I wait for Mandy's young boy to start serving and put him over my grey mare in a bid to breed a better jumping horse!!

One horse, that is a coloured warmblood and is spectacular is owned by Vicki Roycroft and won the Young Horse for showjumping last year. Not too sure who the sire or dam was, but know that it was imported and is just stunning. I wouldn't be suprised if this is our next World Cup showjumping champion, who could also tough it out in the dressage ranks. Vicki has always lead by example and is no slouch in spotting a horse with talent, regardless of breed, colour and to some extent temperament. It would be interesting if we could get her opinion on the colour debate!!

vision
24-03-04, 06:47 AM
I've just re read my post and it seems as though I am having a personal dig at those associated with dressage. Please accept my apologies to those I may offend, it was not meant to be intentional or personal.

Laverne
24-03-04, 07:47 AM
Can I just say one thing? I am thoroughly enjoying this level headed and articulate discussion, and largely because I don't think it is sniping or derogatory on any aspect (at least I hope not anyway.) However, I am a little uncomfortable that certain horses and certain breeders are being used and identified as examples, as then it just gets down to basic good manners - you can't say anything objective or critical because it will probably be deemed as being nasty, so you don't say anything at all. And silence can be just as bad, because by not responding in agreement with someone else's positive comments is usually construed as 'silent' agreement, even though you have an opinion that is negative. Similar to people asking what others think of (e.g.) Fred Smith as an instructor. Usually only those with positive comments will post, so the person raising the original query thinks everyone must love him.

I guess the inherent problem faced by those breeding 'coloured performance horses' is similar to the rest of us breeding our own particular horse - lack of suitable mares. Thanks to advent of AI and suitably qualified and experienced vets, the best stallions in the world are at our doorsteps. Such a shame we don't have the same availability of mares and also the same stringent protocols and testing grounds used by the professionals overseas.

EA
24-03-04, 09:26 AM
Vision, just one correction, the colour horse that Vicky Rides does not actually belong to her, it is owned by two other investors, who I think own some other horses that Vicky rides.

I think most of the Coloured Warmbloods mentioned are not actually studbook members of the major breed societies. Some may be if the breed that introduced the colour is a long way back, but you will find most would not be licensed, performance tested Stallions. I dont count the AWHA ones in this as most of those would never get classified in the international studbooks.

Firstly I will state that I am a breeder, who specialises in breeding jumpers. I do breed some dressage horses (usually only about 4 or so a year) but my philospohies are the same.

Really when someone sets up to breed horses we all have our own agenda, whether we do it for money or to breed something we like ourselves. When it comes down to it you are entitled to do what you like when you are spending your own money, with the proviso that you take responsibiilty for what you breed. If you cant sell it then you have to feed it for life. You need to be happy that you are achieveing what you set out to, what everone else thinks doesnt really matter.

Some people love coloured horses, some dont, people like me dont really care either way. My breeding program is certainly not focussed on colour. I think Mandy is probably correct in that there is a market for these horses, who it is and how much they are prepared to pay I certainly have no answer to, but I am sure people like Mandy does, else she would not be directing her breeding activities that way.

My passion for want of a better description is for breeding with the French jumpers following their breeding philosophies. They are clearly the world leaders for producing jumping horses, many of the studbooks use their stock, with the Holsteiners now even accepting 4 French stallions into their very closed studbook.

The French breeders who breed over 140000 horses a year will not even introduce a new TB line, no matter how well performed, because to them it takes 5 years to see if you were right, and too many mistakes along the way, so most would not take the risk. Now if you asked them if they would introduce a stock horse, arab etc to get colour they would look at you as if you were an idiot, they would not even consider it. Having said that they are not as caught up in conformation as we are either, in fact their horses are not even judged on it, they are judged on their ability to reproduce competitive horses. The French by the way pretty much dont breed dressage horses.

With Breeding dressage horses again personally I would not be wanting to risk introducing some Non-WB into the mix to get colour, there are just too many extremely good Dressage Stallions around that have a better probability of producing great foals.

Centaur
24-03-04, 03:57 PM
Well said EA.
Which are the 4 stallions the Holsteiners have now accepted into their studbook by the way? I am assuming you are counting Cor de La Bryere as one of them? If so, that was some time back, are there 4 more?

Cate
25-03-04, 01:02 AM
As I have said before all Gwens stallions have been licenced and approved with at least one German WB Registry. To be approved you need to complete to a certain level the 100day test, which has now been changed to a 30day and 70 day test. Germany is a bit different to Aust. or NZ in that to breed stallions must be licenced by the State with a verband to be bred, or they are worthless, as nobody would consider using them.

EA
25-03-04, 02:53 AM
No I am not referring to Cor D.. There were four stallions accepted last year. One was Diamant De Semilly, off the top of my head I dont remember the others, but can look it up if you are interested. It was quite a big deal as they had not taken any outsiders for many years.

EA
25-03-04, 03:01 AM
Cate, which ones are they licensed with, as I said before I doubt it is with any of the major studbooks. They are probably only licensed with the coloured horse society or the German breeding association. I am however happy to be proven wrong.

Horses can be put up for the 100 day test and score a passing grade, and still not be accepted by any of the studbooks.

Centaur
25-03-04, 03:34 AM
Yes, I'd love to know who they are EA, thanks very much. So the Holsteiners are nicking the French horses again eh?! Corde was in fact (as I'm sure you know) a Selle Francais/TB cross and is considered one the greatest "Holsteiners" of all time!! So the only small thing I would disgaree on is the French producing dressage horses as Corde has produced many dressage horses AND showjumpers....mind you, that was after the Germans got him so maybe you're right!

Cate
25-03-04, 04:10 AM
They all have to do the 100 day test (now 30 and 70 day) for which they got given marks for, various Verbands will only accept horses with XYZ number of points, this differs from Verband to Verband. Because of the way the german system works, horses are registered within State Verbands, except of course Traks who are a breed and a couple of others that aren't related to any particular area. Oldenburg, RPSI, PRPS, are not as well known as some of the bigger Verbands like Hannoverian, Holstein, Westphalian and Trakehner. Most of the stallion lines are Hann. Holst. and Trak.
Horses are born into a Verband, but can be recognised by others for breeding Purposes.... for instance Caprimond and Hohenstein are both Trakehners but are recognised by the Hannovarian Verband as Breeding stallions (in the future I think most people will think that they were Hann. as that is where their major contribution lies). Dams are usually recognised by a verband and the foals are registered into that Verband providing the stallion they are by is approved with them. Some Verbands won't accept certain colours, from old preduices....
Hmm is this making sense???? I know how it works in my own mind, but don't seem to be explaining it well.

There is a map of the breeding regions on her site http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de/brands.htm

Cate
25-03-04, 04:22 AM
Keep an eye on the relatively new registry Zangershield (sp??) they are breeding exclusively for jumpers and would appear to be doing a good job.... but they are very performance orrientated toward jumping using stallions who can jump :) and potentially pass it on. With culling of stallions who aren't passing on jumping ability. :-)

Laverne
25-03-04, 05:24 AM
Being the ignoramus that I am :-) I had no idea the approval and licensing of the European stallions was as complex as it seems to be.

Cate, considering that the breeding of most of the aforementioned coloured stallions includes Hannoverian, Westphalian, Oldenburger etc., etc., I can't understand why a stallion owner wouldn't have their horse approved and licensed by these well known, internationally recognised stud books. Especially when the stallion's semen is advertised, and made available overseas. What is the point in using a lesser known stud registry?

Cate
25-03-04, 06:25 AM
It is the female tail lines in many cases that aren't the Big Verbands (Hungarian WB for example).... so they can't be registered with them, unless they decide to recognise the mare.... which I think would require the mare to be classified and have a pedigree that they deemed suitable... and its not all that easy to organise getting mare who are infoal and with foal at foot to these in the middle of the breeding season when you are also running several stallions and have other mares due to foal.... and I would think it could get quite expensive. It is also entirely possible that she doesn't own the stallions' dam... that she has just brought them as wealings and raised them as stallion prospects.
Plus I think the breeder is probably happy with the Verbands which she has chosen, the horses stand and fall on their own merits, not because they belong to XYZ Verband. :-)

Centaur
25-03-04, 06:30 AM
But thats the point Cate. I don't see what these stallions merits are. Other than their colour. OK they have done a 100 day performance test, fair enough. But what have their progeny achieved? There is no mention of that. They have produced colour time and again it seems which is important to this stud as that's what it's claim to fame is isn't it?
So where does the 'performance' in 'performance horse' come in?

ernie
25-03-04, 07:19 AM
Lots of good comments and thoughts. Pity though that now we're talking about specific horses because as Laverne said - that's not really the way it should be. But plough on regardless I suppose.

These coloured horses are registered with obscure stud registries and can you really blame the mares? If they haven't been registered - classified if necessary - then why? Surely that's one of the most important aspects of any breeding program? Your good, well-bred and of known quality mare?? Then why would you buy a weanling as a stallion prospect if the mare wasn't studbook?? With well-performing offspring?? The only answer I can think of to that last question is ...Because it's a palomino (or buckskin, whatever). And that can be the only reason.

As EA has said it's a free country and anyone can breed anything they want. It's only my opinion of course but it seems a little sad that the first priority of some breeders of what should be performance sporthorses could be colour.

EA
25-03-04, 07:21 AM
Cate, I am well aware of how the verbands work, in fact there are many areas that do the performance tests and the verbands dont give automatic inclusion for getting over a certain mark.

What I am interested in is what Studbook ie Hannovarian etc are the coloured stallions with, as I dont believe they are with any of them. I have been to the Falkenhorst site and they dont actually say who they are registered with. Will have another look though.

EA
25-03-04, 07:28 AM
I will have a look at my breeding news mag tonight and let you know the names of the others. I just remember Diamant as I am importing his sire Le Tot to use, so I have been conversing with his owners for the last year or so.

There are heaps of great foundation sires that have done well after they have been exported from France, Furioso and Voltaire are a couple most would be familiar with. Believe it or not Voltaire actually failed the performance test several times over, is bad tempered (tore the float to pieces when he was transported to Holland. Now he has produced many great horses.

Yes their sires can produce Dressage horses, but most of the French dont specialise in breeding them. Most breeders breed jumpers. There are a couple though that breed dressage horses.

EA
25-03-04, 07:35 AM
Diamant de Sémilly, Dollar du Murier, Dollar de la Pierre, and Ephébe For Ever
are the 4 stallions that got accepted with the Holstein Verband last year.

I you want to know their Pedigree, I would have to look them up in my French Annuals

Cate
25-03-04, 08:59 AM
The mares are ALL Classified and are Studbook mares, just not with the big Verbands, it doesn't mean their quality is any less... in the same way a Aust. Warmblood isn't a Westphalian. It doesn't mean that the quality of one horse is any better or worse than the other one. To assume that a horse is better quality just because it is from say the Hannoverian or Westphalian verbands, can make you look a bit silly.:-( And unscroupulous sellers rub their hands together and sell stock that they no longer want (older types) at inflated prices because there is a buyer who just sees the Registry and not the horse... this certainly happened in the USA in the early and mid 1980's, because people just had to have an European import.
This has gone beyond colour, and now really seems to be about Registries (Verbands), how they work and what can be registered in which Verband.

Hopefully Gwen will comment on what the stallions have done and how they are registered

FALKENHORST
25-03-04, 09:54 AM
Hi all, I have been informed that my horses are discussed here and I want to give you information as you are totally wrong with your guesses.

First to Centaur. You wrote "Some nice enough horses there BUT ...looking at the bloodlines there were none that had any horses of note in their pedigrees." It is very sad you do not know White Magic one of the best Weltmeyer sons, not know Dream of Glory and Donnerhall, not know Inschallah x or Rockefeller. Truly very sad as they are some of the best stallions from Germany.

Now to the WARMBLOOD. First a horse must be a TRUE Warmblood to be able to be entered into a Warmblood stoodbook. You in Australia do so far not have a single pure Warmblood Palomino as far as I know. All have some stock bred, Saddlebred, QH etc in their pedigree. These horses are not allowed to wear the Warmblood name in Europe and would only be entered into the color books of the aside registries.

MY horses are ALL registered with notable WARMBLOOD registries, have gone to the approvals and have done their testing which is necessary to be allowed to breed. My foals are branded Oldenburg, Zweibruecken, Hessen, Trakehner, Zuchtverband fuer Deutsche Pferde and the Anglo-Arabian books. NONE of these registries is OBSCURE!!! In fact in Germany you can have a stallion licensed with only ONE of the accepted Warmblood registries and when this stallion has fulfilled the stallion testing with a minimum of 80 points, then the other Associations allow the offspring to be branded and registered with them too, even if he was not presented to them for approval as the approval of the other Verband is accepted when the stallion has achieved the performance required. That avoids us to pay tons of fees to different registries which would make me poor. Only the Trakehners and the Anglo-Arabians have a closed studbook and only my Trakehner and Anglo or Partarabians can enter their books. My horses cannot get Hanoverian or Holsteiner papers as these registries do not allow any color, not knowing that most of their non colored horses are in fact colored Sabino Pintos, but that is another thing.

None of you has ever seen any one of my stallions under saddle but speaks bad about them, how come. First you need to see them under saddle and doing the stallion test and then you can judge. There is a horse bred by me in Gilbert Boeckmann's stable, competing successful in jumping, but most are in the hands of dressage riders. Even Hanoverian people come to buy their Palomino Warmblood at my farm as there is no in Hanover, now that young colt is the eye catcher on the pasture there as people say that he only touches earth in trot when necessary.

It is very difficult to breed for quality and color, but I am proud to have reached both. I first breed for quality and second for color! None of my horses is in any color book! Whoever wants to bite, just download the DivX codec (free of charge and virus free) by clicking on the button on my sales pages and install it then by clicking on its EXE file. I can then send you short video clips by e-mail to show you the QUALITY not the color of these horses! Thank you for your time.

Centaur
25-03-04, 10:31 AM
Falkenhorst, thanks for responding on this thread. First of all, let me please clarify that the intention was not to 'speak bad' of your horses. Laverne did warn us this might happen! Shame that we were directed to your website and then used yours as an example, but I must say that it was pointed out to us a GOOD example. I do apologise, but really I don't think anybody has said anything bad about your stallions!
I am certainly aware of who Weltmeyer & Donnerhall are! But admit to not having heard of White Magic. I must have missed those names in the pedigrees which I admit I skimmed and didn't see any names I recognised. My apolgies for that.
Cate, personally I do not much care with whom a horse is registered. I would look at the pedigree,the progeny and how they have done and of course the horse itself! But the Verband or Society really don't mean much to many purchasers I believe.

I still believe that colour comes before anything with the coloured breeders that I have spoken to...why wouldn't it, it's what they do. If you were offered a spectacular coloured mare with slightly pigeon toes and a slightly suspect nature, but she was known to pass on brilliant colour guarenteed or a brown mare with a great pedigree, brilliant movement, has had a couple of her foals go FEI but all the foals are brown no matter which stallion you use...which one would you choose to breed from?
(Falkenhorst this is not directed at you in particular)

FALKENHORST
25-03-04, 11:43 AM
Very easy Centaur. I would not chose any of the two. My horses are 100% correct in conformation and I take especially care on correct legs as that is what makes the horse last the longest. The only flaw you might see is the slight long middle part of Dream of Gold but that is coming from the Donnerhall line and is has not done wrong on Donnerhall.

Here is a little story for you:
I have sold one colt years ago, that was cow hocked and pidgeon toed, a wonderful beautiful Palomino WB otherwise with great spirit and movement. I sold him because I found that he would not do good to breed mares to him and would not get approval. Well the person that bought him, raised him and as a 3 year old I saw him at an approval. The toeing out was worse and the cow hocks also. They might have not even done something with a farrier to make it better. Well sure enough the colt was presented at a Warmblood approval site of the ZfDP (the National German Warmblood Association). The breeding director then said "not approved" because of very bad conformation on the legs, otherwise very good jumping and moving and wonderful type, but well NOT approved. Then this man sold the stallion to another stallion owner and he worked for some time on the hooves and go figure that stallion was approved into the Palomino color books of Schleswig-Holstein! Now he is producing tons of color book foals but mostly with Warmblood background so someone not used to the German paperwork might not see a difference in papers. Only if looking close you see BREED: Palomino in the Warmblood books you see BREED: Deutsches Reitpferd or Oldenburg or Hanoverian etc.
So even when buying a Palomino WB in Germany you must look if it is a Palomino color book WB or a Warmblood breed WB. I know that is difficult to understand but I hope I could make it clear.

BTW White Magic was the best Weltmeyer son that existed. He competed successfully with Holga Finken at Grand Prix and Int.I as an 8 year old, at that age he died due to a severe colic and Win the Gold is his only approved son. The dam side of Dream of Gold and Win the Gold is Lavendel who's sire is the Reserve Champion of the Holsteiner approval of 1990. By clicking on each stallion's picture you reach their pedigree and some more information. After reading that someone should know that these horses are not bred for color but first for quality but had the luck to also have the color. Inspiration for example was the star of the approval he went to and he was mentioned in the Trakehner Hefte as well as the Reiter Revue etc. He scored best at his approval. I wish I would be wealthy, then I could have them all compete furthermore, but since I am not .... :-(

Laverne
25-03-04, 12:48 PM
Thank you so much for your input here Falkenhorst, and especially in such a good spirit. Unfortunately, I had hoped to avoid naming names as any good discussion then gets linked to either a breeder or a horse and it can lose it's objectivity and truth.

You have certainly made some good points which are very applicable to those who admit to breeding for colour in Australia, as I think even though the desire is for a successful performance horse, we can't expect a stallion to totally overide the mare's genetic input, except for her colour genes. As I said in an earlier comment, we are very lacking in a big pool of quality mares in this country, and that is something that I think would be even more evident if you try for performance AND colour.

I think from memory you have been breeding for over 20 years Falkenhorst, so considering this new interest is in it's infancy here, breeders here have a long, long way to go and can probably learn much from you.

FALKENHORST
25-03-04, 01:10 PM
I was in the lucky position to have a very good teacher for quality horses, he schooled my natural eye for quality more and more. He was a Trakehner man from East Prussia and he was the stud manager of one of the biggest Trakehner stud farms in Germany. My main interest were Trakehner horses and the color was an aside love as my first horse was a Partbred Palomino of 15.1 hh that I loved to ride. I studied horse breeding and color genetics for about 33 years now and have started to breed by myself only in 1982, which is 22 years ago. So you see I first learned and then "tried" myself. With the natural feeling and eye (people say I have that) for quality, I succeeded fast in the Trakehner breeding and then started over to ad color. In 1994 I finished my certificate of Master in horse breeding and horse management, so I should know about what I am talking. Since this time the government granted me allowance to teach apprentises in horse breeding and management. These studies are over three years at my stud farm and two weeks of school every 6 weeks.

My main goal is the perfect horse but with the years I got a very good base of mares and stallions to "gamble". I am always striving for the perfect horse, even if that will mostly never exist, but to come close and have stallions and mares score at 8 to 9, being 10 the highest and VERY seldom given score, I am already lucky.

Jenny of Karizmah has semen of my stallion Morgengold and I hope she has chosen a WB mare to inseminate and hopefully she achieves a Palomino Warmblood then. A stallion can not give all, there is always a mare involved at minimum 50% in the game. If you breed to top notch stallions with mediocre mares, then you have a long way to go. No mare scoring below 7 in one of her scores should be bred, that is my opinion. Only with strict selection you can go forward. My problem now is that I have 50 diluted Warmbloods and all are of super quality, then you get difficulties to sell, because you do not know what to sell. I just had an American couple buy two of my horses, a cremello WB colt and a pregnant Verbandspremium Palomino mare in foal to Morgengold. They have driven from Danish breeders, to German breeders, then to me, again to other German breeders, then to the Czech and from there wanted to go back to Berlin to fly home. Well the day before flying back they stood at my door again and the lady said "I do not want to start 20 years behind of where you are, so we will buy from you" and they did it. Now the Cremello is the eye catcher in Florida and she wants to go to Grand Prix dressage with him one day.

Flintridge
25-03-04, 01:41 PM
Thank you Falkenhorst for taking the time to respond to this thread. I can assure you that there are breeders in Australia who have taken up the challenge of breeding good quality warmblood horses which have colour as a bonus.

As to the posters taring all breeders of coloured warmbloods by saying ... 'colour is what they do ... so obviously they would choose colour over quality' - you are really making alot of assumptions about something you, quite clearly, know little about. Of course breeding just for colour or for colour before all else is silly. As is breeding for a gimmicky trot or a thick tail. Presuming that all such breeders are that foolish is as insulting as saying all dressage riders are bitchy and shallow.


Thankfully most judges with discerning eyes don't give a flying fig about colour - and that is all most coloured warmblood breeders would ask; that whatever colour the horse is that enters the arena - the judge assesses it's colour to the same degree that they assess the riders hair colour - zilch.


Some breeders will compromise the quality -
any breeder of anything can be guilty of that.

EA
26-03-04, 02:59 AM
Falkenhorst, thanks for joining in the post, I am sure Mandye is delighted to have you join, as I know she has a great passion to breed some coloured sporthorses here.

My questions to Cate were a comment on which of the registries your Stallions have been accepted by, are you able to tell us this, as in the post above you only mentioned the ones that have accepted the foals.

You also mentioned that we dont have Pure Warmblood coloured horses here in Australia, what do you mean by that. Do you mean that the colour was introduced enough generations ago that it is no longer showing in the Pedigree of the horse.

Laverne
26-03-04, 05:34 AM
And another thing ! :-(

I've just read through the whole thread again and think there may be two different issues. First there's the concept of a "Warmblood" actually being a "Warmblood" even if it is a palomino colour. Regardless of the pedigree, I think here in Australia, the "Australian" WB only needs to have a percentage of recognised WB breeding in it's pedigree, and it's eligible for registration. So you can use a mare who is an top level imported WB, straight from PSI, and put her to a mate's stallion, which is a mish mash of QH/TB/clydie/pinto. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the resultant progeny, here in Australia, would be eligible for WB registration? So I guess at the end of the day, if what I am assuming is correct, it basically means the acceptance stamp of "Australian WB" really doesn't mean much at all. But from what Falkenhorst is saying, the pedigree must be so much more for acceptance into any of the verbands or registries overseas?

The second issue is one of whether a palomino can be a successful performance (dressage) horse. So you have to define "successful" and in a dressage sphere, that ranges from an adult rider or pony clubber having a reliable, safe horse who gives them plenty to smile about, right up to elite level riders at international GP level. Not every successful, high level dressage horse has come about due to a stringent breeding program - there are certainly freaks of nature, and this could come about in the form of a palomino. However, here in Australia, I am not aware of any 'known' palomino's who do not have some, or a mixture of, QH, Arab, Morgan, stock horse in their breeding, and this has been infused for one reason only - the hope for a palomino. No-one could seriously say they deliberatly included QH blood only to enhance the performance aspect for a dressage horse. Otherwise, all astute WB breeders, especially those aiming to produce dressage horses, would be using these breeds rather than sticking with WB's only.

EA
26-03-04, 06:27 AM
Here in Australia the Coloured warmbloods would not necessarily get into the AWHA studbook, they would be eligable for the ID register, which in my opinion only, is worth basically nothing. All is does is recognise that they have some warmblood in their breeding, it does not allow them to produce studbook stock.

Hence why I am interested in which Verbands OS would accept the coloured horses actually into their studbook, as most would be rejected to to the QH etc that was introduced to get the colour.

From the Falkenhorst reponse it appears that they may be many generations ahead in this area and their coloured WB's may have this futher away in the Pedigree so it no longer counts.

The other debate as to whether they make good sporthorses, I think I will stay well away from.

I would be interested in hearing from Falkenhorst though and what type of market they think there is for these horses, is it still pretty specialised or do they feel the general sporthorse buyer is interested in them. As this I think was the origional question asked by Goldilox, ie trying to establish whether there is a market for these horses.

Dutch
26-03-04, 06:33 AM
With the AWHA registered studbook horses can not have anything but Anglo, ASB TB or recognised Warmblood breeding. The AWHA does not take colored wbs into their studbooks (as far as I am aware)
They do have an ID register that includes Morgans, QH's, Pinto, palomino etc. It declares that the horse has greater than 25% recognised WB breeding the other 75% could be anything from Shetland to Shire. These horses can never upgrade to the full studbook register.

There are other registeries in Australia which I wont name, that will take anything you would like to tell them is a wb and register it as a WB. They don't seem to care what the breeding is.

Centaur
26-03-04, 06:44 AM
Falkenhorst, that is a very interesting story about your colt. But I have one question for you. With all due respect, if you clearly thought that the colt was not a good enough example to breed from (and from your posts it would seem that you are an extremely knowledgable and concientious breeder)then why didn't you geld him before selling him on?

Jen2
26-03-04, 07:26 AM
What an interesting thread and one, as a coloured warmblood breeder, obviously close to my heart.

I think the problem in Australia is that we are so much in our infancy as far
as breeding potentially successful coloured "performance" horses go, given that the concept is still a relatively new one. Most people (understandably) still think of palominos as dubiously bred, under 15hh kid's ponies not tall elegant and sensationally moving performers!

I think too that breeders have to be realistic about what and to whom they are breeding. I have no doubt our stallion's progeny could go on to lofty heights in both dressage and jumping but as someone has already said, there are few riders in Australia with the ability to take them there. It is the age old problem for breeders - how to get your progeny "out there" and climbing the ranks to get the stud name known and recognised.

It is true that all coloured warmbloods in Australia at present have inherited their "colour" from other breeds but the handful of us who are breeding coloured warmbloods are endeavouring to slowly improve this situation. Here at Karizmah, rather than just breeding to sell, we are retaining our very best palomino fillies by our stallion to one day breed them on to outstanding solid coloured warmblood stallions. Slowly but surely we aim to increase the percentage of warmblood "blood" in our palominos and who knows, one day the die-hard Warmblood purists might begin to take us seriously. *g*

Jenny
Karizmah Palominos
Palomino Warmbloods & Sport Horses
http://www.karizmah.com

Maree
26-03-04, 08:18 AM
I think the comment "other registeries will take anything" is a bit harsh and also a generalisation.

Registration into the AWHA WID (warmblood identification register) requires only 25% proven warmblood. So providing you can prove that 25% WB, anything can be registered. The WID does not allow breeding right registration if a WID mare has a foal, regardless of the stallions classification or registration. The next twist to WID registration, is that if you have at least 3 registered generations of W/B, T/B, Anglo or Arabian, and you have a pass mark of 60%, the mare can then be upgraded to the Foundation Mare B group, 70% and you're into the A group. This allows breeding rights registration, if the foal is by an approved AWHA stallion.

I may be interpreting the AWHA regulations incorrectly but this sounds like the equivalent to letting anything into the registery and having a breed right to progeny registration.

Dutch, I'm not having a direct shot at you, I just find alot of double standards exist within the Aust WB breed societies, regardless of which associations they are.

vision
26-03-04, 08:46 AM
Well put Jenny. I for one, will not be discounting a horse based on it's colour, breed or the associations with which it is registered. I really don't care if the next world champion turns out to be a 15hh palomino with dubious breeding, or a 17.2hh "Pure" warmblood with generations of registered breeding and "acceptable colouring".

At the end of the day, we all ride/ breed/ associate with horses as we have a passion and a love for them. I am no World Class rider, but if I can buy a nice type of horse that will get me around a couple of showjumping tracks and do a reasonable dressage test, then I'm still doing what I love.

I think there are too many opinions in this country on what is right and what is wrong in breeding, but as mentioned in a previous post we are decades behind the Europeans in knowledge. In twenty years time, it would be interesting to raise this topic again with the same forum users and see what opinions surface.

Good luck with your aspirations to breed quality and colour Jenny, I for one am supporting you, and next lotto win, will be coming shopping, cause I'm prepared to take the risk!

Centaur
26-03-04, 09:16 AM
And what exactly is it that would entice people to buy a palomino warmblood? This is not a trick question, nor is there any trace of nastiness about it...but I just want to know what the attraction is?
See, I for one when I go out shopping for a horse for either myself or a client might have a list of what I am looking for. And I have to say, in all honesty that the colour of the horse in question is the last thing on my mind. It is of absolutely no consequence to me, it is totally unimportant as long as the horse can do the job we require of it. A good horse is never a bad colour. So, who goes out looking for a palomino, or a paint or whatever and why?? It's a visual thing surely? They want to ride something that is a pretty colour? Why? To look good? Good to look at in the paddock?
Nothing wrong with any of those reasons, free country, you can do what you like. But does it gel with the reasons for purchasing a performance horse or does it give credence to breeding these horses as 'performance horses'? Isn't it more of a 'hacking' type person that wants to look pretty on a pretty colour?
Well, I think about here's where I bow out. I am sure there are many a well intentioned breeder out there trying to do the right thing. And there are some who are rank amatuers playing in a professionals game.The only thing that would prove that some of them are putting colour well and truly over anything else would be to post individual examples. And that's not fair to do on here.
Have fun, it's been a great debate :-)

ernie
26-03-04, 09:39 AM
Sorry to see you go Centaur :-)

There's a lot more that I'd like to say too, but as you have said already, the only way to go now would be to put up individuals for scrutiny and that's not fair. So I'm out of here too.

Good luck with your coloured horse breeding, girls. Please remember one thing though. When next you are using a certain stallion (or mare for that matter) because he is palomino/cremello - a son of some wonderful "plain" coloured warmblood stallion - why don't you use the "plain" coloured sire if you are so rapt in his palomino offspring? Could it possibly be that you are breeding for colour and not the quality that the "plain" horse has thrown?

FALKENHORST
26-03-04, 10:42 AM
Centaur, you are totally right, but he was just 6 months old and I was not thinking of somebody taking him for approval.

FALKENHORST
26-03-04, 10:59 AM
EA, please read through my posts, I have explained what a true WB is and as for the registries, the EU rules say that a stallion has to be accepted by another registry if he fulfills the performance and pedigree requirement of the other registry. If you go to my website, it is clearly mentioned what kind of papers and approvals my stallions have.

FALKENHORST
26-03-04, 11:06 AM
EA, we do NOT have any QH or other breeds like that in our WBs. Our Palomino color is coming from TBs and TB is an allowed breed if approved for Warmbloods. My Warmbloods in Palomino color are all papered with the Warmblood Associations, but there are a lot of Palomino Warmbloods, that have not the quality and therefore are in the color books, which means they only get "Palomino" not "Warmblood" papers. I had explained that in one of my posts. Please read it again.

Jen2
26-03-04, 11:50 AM
Centaur I will try to answer your question in relation to our clients who have had mares served by our stallion and have purchased or expressed interest in, his foals.

On the whole they are lovers of palominos. That is undeniable and one
and I stress, only ONE, of the reasons they approach us in the first place.
Secondly they are concerned about temperament, conformation and movement, more or less in that order. BUT having said they are lovers of pallies does not mean they will just buy any yellow thing on 4 legs just because of it's colour! Far from it. If that was the case I'd be a millionaire,
with a paddock full of cheap chestnut mares all churning out the goods.

Ultimately (and I am talking about the dressage/show people, not showjumpers who don't care a fig as long as it can jump) they want the whole package - and to them the colour is a bonus - to them any horse is a good colour, but palominos are better. If you get my drift...

And it has to be said that a stunning tall palomino does turn heads and does get noticed. So perhaps there is something of the show-off in them as well.

Ernie, for the very same reason that they choose the son over the sire is
that they want everything the sire had plus colour. But that doesn't mean they are buying (or that we are breeding) just for colour.

When you buy a car do you not choose a particular colour over another?
Because you can? I guess for them it is the same thing.

Give us a few years. Wait till my palomino warmblood (on both sides) mare has her foal to Weltmeyer. Or my 3/4 Trackeher palomino filly or pally Guillit/Contact filly are out performing and one day get bred to prominent German dressage stallions (that compliment them of course). Maybe then you will realise that you can have colour without compromising on quality and for some people, a golden coat is just the icing on the cake.

Jenny

EA
27-03-04, 01:55 AM
Falkenhorst, therein lies a big difference then with Australia, our Studbook TB's do not have any coloured horses, hence why the Australian breeders have to get the colour from elsewhere, and why some breeders here have an issue with what breeds are being introduced to get the colour.

I did read your post, and there was no mention of the studbooks that your stallions are registered with, only some of the foals. Hence my question, I am really interested to know if the Hannovarian Verband, or Holstein would accept coloured horses into their studbook. I dont believe they do, however as I said previously I am happy to be wrong. The only major studbook you mentioned was Oldenberg but they are much more liberal with what they accept than the other verbands.

EA
27-03-04, 02:16 AM
Falkenhorst, I did have a look through the site and it appears that none of them are registered with the Major Verbands. Only one with the Oldenberger. The others all appear to be with the German WB, which I cant even find in the WBFSH members list. Maybe in the saying the horses are German WB you are referring to something else.

This is by no means any comment good or bad on the stallions concerned, I am more interested to find out if the major verbands accept coloured horses.

The only Hannovarian I found on the site was actually a grey.

Cate
27-03-04, 03:43 AM
Sorry was away for a day....
Colour like other things is personal preference, some people don't like chestnut mares, others won't have a grey.... So if you have the choice of 2 horses who are roughly equal ability wise.... say a bay and a black and you chose the black because you like blacks, it doesn't make you shallow, same with the coloured horses. And most people will chose a pretty horse over a not so pretty one (even though they know you don't ride colour or a pretty head).

Also for what its worth, I don't breed "coloured" horses, but am interested in colour genetics. Because I breed Traks the only way you can get colour in is through TB's (Traks or Arabs), and it would need to be a quality TB before I would use it. Of the 2 mares I do breed with one has produced 2 Advanced Dressage horses so far, and the other has had 1 foal exported....

Cate
27-03-04, 03:56 AM
The letters after their names indicate where they are registered with... RPSI etc are the Verbands.
I am pretty sure Hannoverians and Holsteiners Verbands do not accept Palomino or Buckskin, or Loud Sabinos.... not sure about the other Verbands. Traks do, providing you can prove acceptable pedigree and pass classification, Traks actually have a history of Tobiano horses, who were often very good jumping / eventing horses. :)

Ploise exploin
27-03-04, 04:18 AM
Does anyone know how a Tb stallion with, to my knowledge (am happy to be corrected), NO warmblood breeding can be accepted into the AWHA Full Studbook as a Licensed stallion when other horses with at least 50% wb breeding can't because they don't have the required 4 generations of warmblood breeding on both sides of their pedigree. When hello, the Tb doesn't have any??? This has bugged me for some time. If anyone knows why or how this has been allowed please share. (And yes I could call the AWHA so there is no need to post that advice, thanks.)

Disclaimer: This in no way is intended to denegrate the Tb stallion in question who I am sure is a perfectly wonderful horse.

ernie
27-03-04, 11:40 AM
Aarrgh!!! I said I wouldn't come back ... can't help myself!!

Jen2 ... a car has the same performance statistics, no matter the colour. You can't compare.

You've called the palomino colour the "icing on the cake". You say the palomino son will produce as well as the plain coloured proven sire that I mentioned but you just can't say that!! Particularly if there is some "outside" colour breeding in the son. By saying (and thinking) that you are compromising quality and proven performance for colour.

Good luck with your palomino warmblood mares. :-)

ernie
27-03-04, 03:46 PM
I should add. You are breeding for a market, selling to a market, and that can only be good business and I like good business people :-)

FALKENHORST
27-03-04, 08:49 PM
EA, I am sorry but you have NOT read my first post apparently. Here is a part of it again and this answers your question:
"MY horses are ALL registered with notable WARMBLOOD registries, have gone to the approvals and have done their testing which is necessary to be allowed to breed. My foals are branded Oldenburg, Zweibruecken, Hessen, Trakehner, Zuchtverband fuer Deutsche Pferde and the Anglo-Arabian books. NONE of these registries is OBSCURE!!! In fact in Germany you can have a stallion licensed with only ONE of the accepted Warmblood registries and when this stallion has fulfilled the stallion testing with a minimum of 80 points, then the other Associations allow the offspring to be branded and registered with them too, even if he was not presented to them for approval as the approval of the other Verband is accepted when the stallion has achieved the performance required. That avoids us to pay tons of fees to different registries which would make me poor. Only the Trakehners and the Anglo-Arabians have a closed studbook and only my Trakehner and Anglo or Partarabians can enter their books. My horses cannot get Hanoverian or Holsteiner papers as these registries do not allow any color, not knowing that most of their non colored horses are in fact colored Sabino Pintos, but that is another thing."

As for the Palomino TBs, you have them too in your country just they are not recognized as Palomino but as Chestnuts. This was the case all over the world until I imported two Palomino TBs from the USA to Germany, then I needed to have the government vet to state the color and whirls, markings etc to obtain the International JC papers from the German JC as the TB papers always travel apart from the horse. Then the problem started. They were not chestnut as stated in their papers, they were palomino. So the former director of the German JC arrived at my place himself to look them up, found them to be Palomino and not chestnut as in the papers and calling all TB Associations in Europe they said "Palominos do not exist in TBs", well and here is the problem. They DO exist since centuries but they have always been recognized on the papers as chestnuts only since people become more educated they understand more about genetics. So the JC ordered a new blood test, they tested to be the horses they are and so the German JC director went last year to the INternational JC convention and they voted to have the correct color into the papers and since then Palomino TBs can get correct papers as Palomino TBs and they are no longer chestnuts which was wrong. Please call the Australian JC, they should know about that rule too. There was an article about this in the Chronicle of the Horse, issue No. 47 of 2003 on page 122 if you can get a copy of it. Now we will move forward to soon have also the buckskins and cremellos and perlinos recognized with their correct color.

FALKENHORST
27-03-04, 09:03 PM
EA, I already replied to one of your posts a bit above concerning the Hanoverians, Holsteiners and the TBs.

As for the WBFSH you should take a closer look - sure enough the ZfDP - Zuchtverband fuer Deutsche Pferde IS a member. I am getting a bit tired of repeating the same things all the time. The Deutsches Reitpferd is ZfDP - Zuchtverband fuer Deutsche Pferde, the RPSI is Pferdezuchtverband Rheinland-Pfalz-Saar which are also called Zweibruecker, the Verband Hessischer Pferdezuechter is a member, the Oldenburgs are part and my horses are approved with these so I would think that is very much enough. As said before they CANNOT be Hanoverian or Holsteiner registered as they do not allow the dilute and pinto coloring although they have a lot of Sabino Pintos in their studbooks ;-) None of these Associations is OBSCURE or bad! I hope that has clarified the whole thing now. My horses are of plain Warmblood - and I mean true WB - breeding and there is nothing else aside in their veins.

FALKENHORST
27-03-04, 09:17 PM
I guess it is the same reason why we have approved TB stallions in our studbooks, because the TB, the Arabian and the Anglo-Arabian are allowed horses into the Warmblood breeding after approval.

Jen2
28-03-04, 01:53 AM
Welcome back Ernie! lol :7

Re the car analogy, I guess I was, albeit badly, trying to point out that
for "some" people" a golden coat is part of their "wish list", so if they
have the choice between two similar horses but one is golden, chances are they would choose the pally. I acknowledge that for riders further up the dressage talent ladder this may not apply but for our market it certainly seems to be the case.

Re the son vs dad thing, yes well obviously the dam has input, but what I was alluding to was if well bred the son should, by rights, be as good if not better than the sire. Isn't that what we are all trying to achieve in our breeding?
I doubt Jaybee Stud bred our boy just for colour. His dam was a highly successful show horse (plus was trained to Elementary dressage, ok so not Grand Prix, but that wasn't her main field) plus was by the wonderful dynamo showjumper, Chico D'oro, who in his own right is nothing to be sneezed at.

Having said that I do realise there are "studs" out there who do breed just for colour and that makes our task of changing attitudes to coloured performance horses doubly difficult. So I can only speak for ourselves in that, we are trying (and it will take generations) to produce warmbloods equal in quality to the best in the land. And if they happen to have a golden coat, well, you beauty! lol.

And in answer to the original post, is there a market for coloured performance horses, I would have to say yes, but it is, and will probably always be, a niche one.

Jenny
Karizmah Palominos
http://www.karizmah.com

jaybee
28-03-04, 06:29 AM
Let me start by saying that I have never bred for colour. But how do you cull yellow mares that have achieved very high scores in dressage and jumped Grand Prix.
I bought Chico D'Oro as a yearling creamy colt purely because I fancied him. When at 2yo he moulted out his creamy coat and turned pure gold, I had to learn what a palomino was. Some years later, after Grand Prix Showjumping, Champion ridden stallion Melbourne Royal and siring an Australian rep Showjumper in Aschico and an Australian rep Dressage horse in Peaches and Cream, incidentally, both palominos, I decided that coloured horses were allright.
In answer to Laverne & Ernie who wanted to know "what happened to the solid coloured ones". Jaybee Applause, bay gelding, South Australian Dressage Horse of the year on several occasions. approaching Grand Prix, and Ricky Macmillan considers that he is capable of 70% at the level is out of Dublin - buckskin mare by Chico D'Oro out of t'bred mare by Royal Sovereign. Dublin has also produced other good dressage horses, and showjumpers graded from D to A Grade. I could name them but it would take a while as she is an old mare.
Jaybee Angelle. chestnut mare also SA Medium/Advanced horse of the year. Out of Elegant, palomino mare by Chico D'Oro out of an Anglo mare. Elegant incidentally, was placed as a hack at both Brisbane and Sydney Royals and went Medium with her Dressage. She was also the most successful palomino mare I ever showed. Supreme at all Royal Shows and a perfect palomino colour.
These two mares, one buckskin, one palomino have bred mostly coloured horses, and I am sure that Jaybee Apache, Excellent, Gold Card, Altair, etc are familiar to equestrian riders, both dressage and jumping. Incidentally, all of these horses are WID AWHA, because they keep good records, and good horses should always be able to have their pedigrees traced. Otherwise every lesson that is learned is lost when the breeder dies.
Let us face the fact, that although I am a enthusiastic supporter of the AWHA, and offer my stallions and mares for classification, if a horse cannot produce the goods, I dont care what the fancy foreign piece of paper says. I dont want him. A good horse is never a bad colour. I would also like to state that I regard the AWHA classification as more stringent than the German ones. There are feet and jaws on some imported licensed stallions, and also being produced by frozen semen stallions that would not get through classification in Australia under AWHA rules.
There has been the usual amount of male bovine faeces promulgated here by non-riding breeders. However I have managed to control myself.
BEV

Laverne
28-03-04, 12:44 PM
Bev, you obviously know the identities of each of the contributors to this thread in order to make your last comment about "non-riding breeders" but at least I know you're not having a swipe at me as I AM a "riding breeder."

As you said yourself, you do not, and have not bred specifically for colour - it has come about by accident and even without your reminders, many of us are well aware of your continued and growing successes in the breeding and production of performance horses. I was genuinely interested in this topic, before posters started naming names and naming stallions etc., as I knew once that happened, the objectivity was lost, and honest opinion and participation is gone. And that is just what has happened. Now, some people (breeders) have become defensive because the topic has become personal so it's hard to say anything genuine or query something without it being deemed as a direct attack on someone or their horse.

From what I can gather, due to the limited pool of suitable breeding stock available in this country, the only way breeders can initially aim to produce the palomino colour, is to utilise breeds or types such as QH, part Arab, Morgans, part breds etc, where the palomino colour already exists, so that helps with the colour side of it. And in order to produce the performance side, I guess the other half of the mating would include a TB or WB (or other breed) of proven dressage performance and/or proven dressage performance in their progeny. So in regard to your defensive comments to me about "what happens to the solid coloured progeny", you have taken my comment totally out of context. The very start of that paragraph, where you have only quoted the last sentence, started with discussing those who intend to breed specifically for colour, which in this case is palomino's. Considering the aims of these breeders is palomino and dressage, and in order to produce the colour there is a need to use others breeds or types of horse NOT used ordinarily when breeding for dressage, my query related to these horses, who were born solid colour and not the desired palomino colour. I think one of the potential breeders expressed an interest in leasing a tall, quality cremello mare, but the description indicates there is more concern with the improving the odds of producing the palomino colour, rather than a well performed mare with proven progeny.

ernie
28-03-04, 04:21 PM
I think that Jaybee is referring to me as a non-riding breeder, Laverne. :-)

So since we're getting personal Bev, just let me say that you are dead wrong about that. I most certainly ride. I didn't ask what happened to the solid coloured horses from matings for colour - but I would like to know what happens to those awful insipid creamy coloured ones. The question needs to be answered ... are they sold at a lower price than the "golden" ones? Because the colour's not so good?

Bev you've certainly bred some fantastic horses that are making their presence felt in the dressage world. They're like peas in a pod and an excellent example of sound breeding principles. And they're almost all bay.

MandyE
28-03-04, 09:31 PM
This has just been the best discussion! I’ve been trying to post on this subject for a couple of days now, but every time I’m just about to wind up, bl##dy computer crashes, grrrr! However, I’ve been following the discussion with great interest.

BEV, how nice to hear from you! Thanks for joining the fray, and Welcome to this stimulating discussion! Gwen, thanks for your input, I’m glad you made it. I originally posted your website to show people an example of the quality coloured warmbloods.you are breeding, and their excellent bloodlines.

I’d like to touch on something which has been possibly overlooked by both Ernie and Laverne. Just for info, in general, breeding palominos with height (and I mean APHA members, as distinct from WARMBLOOD breeders producing palomino coloured warmbloods) in Victoria follows two separate trends – that is, quarterhorse bred versus stockhorse bred of mainly thoroughbred influence (I’ll leave the ponies out of it, lol!). Now the stockhorse lines I am referring to are about 95-98% thoroughbred. The palomino colour has been introduced so many generations ago that when we look through the APHA studbook, even the original foundation stallions are identified as being from thoroughbred stock – at least the lines that interest me in my breeding program.

Now this might open a can of worms, but I know that Gwen at Falkenhorst says that dilutes DO in fact exist in the ‘pure’ thoroughbred. I know that in Australia they aren’t accepted into our ‘studbook’, but in Europe apparently they are accepted into the studbooks as full thoroughbreds. From what I can gather from talking with other breeders and my own research, that it is quite possible that some dilute thoroughbreds have been entered into the studbook, but been identified on their papers as being ‘chestnut’, as chestnut is their base colour. There are a few dilute thoroughbred stallions in the United States – two of them are Goldmaker (crem), and his full brother Dream of Gold (pal). Both of these stallion’s pedigrees are available on the internet, and although they are not ‘registered’ thoroughbreds, their pedigree goes back to the original founding stallions – I’ve looked thoroughly, and I can’t find ONE ‘merky ring in’ (by that I mean NON thoroughbred) – they are all thoroughbreds. Incidentally, some of them are registered as chestnut, when they were actually palomino…. When I can find the website, I'll post it for your info.

Laverne, ‘naming names’ as you put it, was not for the purpose of building up or pulling down anyone. The way I read this thread, Bev was just citing examples of the dilute horses she has bred and their performances, because an earlier post by someone implied that their have been no dilute dressage horses of note in Australia. I’m sure that Gwen also replied in kind. Incidentally, Goldilox who started the thread, cited the ‘beautiful Jaybee stallion’ – so let’s put that to bed, shall we?

Cate makes an excellent point about some people not liking chestnut mares and others who won’t have a grey. I tried to say exactly the same thing myself yesterday before my computer crashed! I personally don’t like grey horses as a collective – it’s probably my least preferred colour – but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate, and score accordingly, a quality animal who can perform well in a dressage test when I am judging, even though it’s a grey. Similarly, I also get to judge a lot of palominos, and I certainly don’t mark them well if they don’t perform well!

I also have a bit of a penchant for a clear red chestnut with lots of sabino white markings (for those of you not up with ‘colour’ terminology, ‘sabino’ isn’t a type of paint, it refers to a particular characteristics in white marking on a horse – minimal sabino have pointed spears on white socks whether they are to the knee or above, or not, and usually have a white chinspot. Ritual has sabino white markings – maximum Sabino produces pure white with dark eyes and maybe a little colour remaining on the ears – EPL stud has two of these).

And I have to ask Laverne, what’s wrong with the arabian influence in this equation in relation to dressage? Certainly all the European studbooks have used arabian and anglo’s in the breeding program, a quick look at The Horse Mag website and their ‘greatest stallions of the world’ profiles will show you a couple I believe. And some current stallions have arabian blood as close as 3 or 4 generations back. Arabian blood is certainly proven in the dressage world, perhaps not as pure breds, but derivatives certainly make their mark.

And yes, if I was able to procure a tall, QUALITY cremello mare OF PREDOMINANTLY TB breeding, then I would consider using it in my program PROVIDED it passed all of my other criteria for being a ‘quality’ mare – ie, excellent conformation, good movement, temperament, straight legs. If this theoretical mare produced a QUALITY palomino filly for me to a frozen semen stallion, that I would then be able to breed to another chestnut frozen semen stallion, to produce a ¾ frozen semen palomino or chestnut foal, the colour wouldn’t matter, the horse would stand on its merits as a QUALITY horse!

As for the ‘awful insipid creamy coloured ones’, if when selecting breeding stock you are as careful in your selection of the chestnut parent’s actual coat colour and clarity, then yes, it is possible to avoid the insipid ones. But, like the chestnut foals, the ‘insipid’ palomino offspring will be good enough to look past their colour when they are standing up in front of you, and when they move, well…… And in this case, no, the ‘insipid’ foals will not be sold at a lower price than the ‘golden’ ones, if their conformation, movement and temperament are equal.

Our chestnut Jazz yearling filly will be introduced into my breeding program when she is old enough. I have very high hopes for this filly to produce some outstanding foals as she is an outstanding horse herself. Only time, of course, will tell.

My palomino Alabaster grandson is only 3 months old – already I’ve had interest from other breeders to use him in the future. And NOT from palomino breeders! I plan to be super critical of him as he grows as to whether he will be good enough to keep as a colt. Not just conformation, not just movement, but temperament as well.

Incidentally, one lady who has approached me about possibly using my colt, has ONLY bay or brown mares, and usually when selecting her mares checks their pedigree several generations back to ensure there are no chestnuts present – the stallions she normally uses are bay, brown or black. Is that any different to our ‘selective’ breeding for palominos?

Well, I’d go on all night if I could, but I’m going to get some sleep now!

Looking forward to the next instalments, I haven’t even been over to the Equestrian Forum since this thread got going!

Cheers all

Mandy :-)

Laverne
29-03-04, 02:52 AM
Mandy, I'm like you. I hardly ever venture across to this forum but when I saw this topic, it was of great interest to me because of a similar idea we used to have, but have since discarded. (not relating to palomino's but another colour.)

Now you have also taken me the wrong way with regard to my reference in using the 'arabian influence' with the breeding. It must be my use of the english language or my phrasing, as there is no way I have said the use of the arabian breed is detrimental to the performance horse. I shall try to make myself more clear now. In Australia, the only way the palomino colour can be produced in the "Australian WB" is by using some or all of other breeds or types of horses, including QH, part Arab, stock horse, Morgan's etc. As has been said over and over again, the original performance WB could not be a palomino and the main overseas verbands still will not accept them. Regardless of whether that is a colour bias or whatever, is irrelevent. We would surely be fools to not look to those who have been breeding dressage horses for years and years, and learn from them. Accordingly, these are the same countries who continue to dominate on the international arena. As only a young country by comparison in the breeding game, I'm sure that whilst we (collectively) are hopeful of an Australian stud producing a horse to emulate the likes of Rusty, we surely don't expect that the German's will ever shift their breeding barns here?

But, if the palomino (dressage) performance horse is seen as a general 'all rounder' with a lovely golden coat, and suits the needs and aims of the average rider, then perhaps the situation is explained more clearly for those who are a little concerned. As I said earlier, if the infusion of QH, stockhorse and Morgan, as well as part-arab was of benefit purely from a DRESSAGE PERFORMANCE point of view, I'm sure the Europeans would have picked up on this years ago, and have been using them. Their absence from the European breeding lines can only indicate that they are not ideal to enhance the desired end product. (and I know the Arab influence is used, but here is Australia, those breeding palomino's only seem interested in the Arab influence where it enhances the pally gene.)

I guess the reason this is of such interest to me, is that those studs who breed for say cutting or campdrafting horses, wouldn't be interested in infusing WB's or Welsh cobs or hackneys because they won't improve the desired outcome. So isn't it the same for those wishign to breed (high level) palomino dressage horses? Isn't the (possible) gain for desired colour, at the expense of the actual performance itself? Otherwise wouldn't successful studs, such as Belcam International, Kinnordy, Belcam Warmblood Stud, etc., be using the QH, stockhorse types ?

Believe me, this is a genuine query as we had similar thoughts some time ago regarding our desire to breed a certain type of horse, although not aiming for anything more than a horse suitable for the 'average' rider, but after months and months of researching, we decided against it.

:Laverne
29-03-04, 04:37 AM
Sorry Mandy but I just thought of something else ... and anything that distracts me from doing our books is more than a welcome relief!!!

When I consider dressage in Victoria from elementary up to advanced/PSG level, I'm not aware of any palomino's competing at dressage at these levels at the moment. I know you're in Victoria like us, so when you said you were judging heaps of pally's, is this at open or breed shows? Or are they all up and coming in prelim/novice classes? We only know what's around with elementary and up because that is where my partner and her clients are competing, so excuse my ignorance.

Another thing that interested me, was someone much earlier on commented something similar to once they had won lotto they would buy an Australian bred palomino WB. Is the market or demand for palomino dressage horses so great, that to buy one, we will need a lotto win? Surely not?

ernie
29-03-04, 05:20 AM
Hmmm. So now you need to not only have one dilute parent, but your chestnut parent needs to be a certain type of chestnut colour in order to avoid a pale palomino. Sounds like colour breeding to me. Sorry MandyE - but it surely does. And then to think that you would put a palomino over a dressage-bred filly by Jazz - when you have all the absolutely top dressage performance lines at your disposal via frozen semen. You can check on their temperament and rideability/trainability so that shouldn't enter the equation. But you like palominos so I guess that's fine. I personally prefer a nice bay :-) but I would hope for a bay foal, I wouldn't breed for a bay foal.

I think you are breeding the best horses you possibly can, but are limited by your predilection (hope that's the right word) for the palomino colouring.

Laverne - MandyE has said elsewhere she judges Adult Riding Club dressage, so this would be where she has seen a lot of palominos. Which leads me to think about the palomino foal (hopefully :-) ) that Jen2 is expecting, by Weltmeyer. Weltmeyer's offspring can be very tricky temperament-wise (not all of them) and they also have very very powerful movement. Do you think this sort of horse with the kind of movement that Weltmeyer throws would be able to be ridden by your average adult rider? Or will the more serious dressage riders come to accept palominos?

d
29-03-04, 08:58 AM
Interesting discusion

If people are going to take on the expensive and often heartbreaking task of breeding a foal then why shouldn't colour,along with all other attributes be one of the considerations. I'm sure most people don't fancy the more insipid shades of all base colours not just the dilutes, so why not give consideration to the possible colours of the foal when selecting matings?

As to those WB breeders who go on and on about "purebred" WB's their is no such thing. WB's are a composite animal bred for a purpose, not a pure breed, simply recording their pedigree for no matter how many generations does not qualify them as a purebred anything.

As to their superiority wasn't Rusty listed as of unknown breeding in the early part of his career? Only as his star continued to climb did the claims as to his breeding begin to be made! Latvian WB or crossbred mongrel there is no doubt he is a star!

Did Milton lose a leg when it came out that he was by the Connemara teaser and not the WB stallion Marius? Milton would have been a great horse regardless of his colour but do you think his fan club would have been as big if he hadn't been white (grey) ?

FALKENHORST
29-03-04, 11:55 AM
Mandy wrote:
Now this might open a can of worms, but I know that Gwen at Falkenhorst says that dilutes DO in fact exist in the ‘pure’ thoroughbred. I know that in Australia they aren’t accepted into our ‘studbook’, but in Europe apparently they are accepted into the studbooks as full thoroughbreds. From what I can gather from talking with other breeders and my own research, that it is quite possible that some dilute thoroughbreds have been entered into the studbook, but been identified on their papers as being ‘chestnut’, as chestnut is their base colour. There are a few dilute thoroughbred stallions in the United States – two of them are Goldmaker (crem), and his full brother Dream of Gold (pal). Both of these stallion’s pedigrees are available on the internet, and although they are not ‘registered’ thoroughbreds, their pedigree goes back to the original founding stallions – I’ve looked thoroughly, and I can’t find ONE ‘merky ring in’ (by that I mean NON thoroughbred) – they are all thoroughbreds. Incidentally, some of them are registered as chestnut, when they were actually palomino…. When I can find the website, I'll post it for your info
**************************
The influcence of the cream dilution into the TBs came via the Achal-Tekkes that were once influenced into the breed after having found that more influence of the Arabians did not very much bring them forward. So there were more Achal-Tekkes influenced at a certain epoche. If you read the GB (which is the motherland of the TBs) studbooks you find them. It started with Byerly Turk (Turk being for Tekke). The Darcys Yellow Turk paintings show you a buckskin horse, not really with dark legs but the painters were a bit more free these days. Centuries ago the TBs were bred for DARK colors and since the cream dilution is very well masked in the dark as it cannot dilute the black hairs, it was not discovered for most times and when a Palomino popped up it was a "light chestnut" so these Palominos where registered as chestnuts in the TB books but they always existed. Just look up the TB stallion Whistlejacket, clearly a Palomino! And in an old article in GB I also found a "light chestnut" which in fact is clearly a Palomino. So with the wrong registering the world thought that "Palominos" do not exist in the TB, well they did not exist in the papers, but they always existed in the truth heritage and bloodlines. As the German JC finally made the step forward to insist the correct color to be named in the papers of the TBs there will actually a lot of them been DNA tested for the cream gene and then receive their correct papers. There was a TB in France that was named Sylfou and he was the creator of the Hungarian line of Palomino Warmbloods. The Czech Palomino WB line called Equus Kinsky was also created by a TB and a man that got furious because his foal being a Palomino out of a chestnut mare and a dark bay stallion was said to be a bastard which it was not, just that stallion had the cream gene masked into his dark bay color. I have several buckskins that are so dark you would say they are black bay with golden touch. So this man, Count KINSKY who also invented the Great Pardubice steeple chase, created his own studbook because this colt did not get papers from the Czech JC. The next story is the famous Marlon, TB in the Holsteiner breed. Count Breido zu Rantzau, director of the Holsteiner Verband once owned a Palomino mare named Ma Soleil, she was out of a CHESTNUT mare by Marlon xx. Since Marlon produced several Palominos and "golden or light bays) we all know now that he in fact was a dark buckskin. Genetics is genetics and colors do not "pop up" just like that. Go to Del Mar Pedigree base http://www.pedigreequery.com/ and look up the horse Whistlejacket. I have set up the two pictures into my website database, so you can see both TBs at my website: http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de/whisteljacket.jpg and http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de/Darcy's%20Yellow%20Turk.jpg
As for the two TBs above they are not unregistered, they once had JC papers but when it came out that they were conceived via AI their JC papers were revoked. They are still pure TBs.

You should ask your own JC why they do not follow the International TB rules and I am sure they will!!!

FALKENHORST
29-03-04, 11:57 AM
With the two Tbs above I did not mean those of the pictures, but Goldmaker, the cremello and Dream in Gold the Palomino in the USA.
Dream of Gold is my Palomino WB stallion, a Dream of Glory grandson.

DD
29-03-04, 02:14 PM
Do these horses have full studbook papers or just JC papers. In Australian they are two different things. JC papers just allow a horse to race but they don't have to be full TB so a palomino or some other colored horse could race. But full Stud Book papers are different, the horse must have only TB studbook horses in the pedigree. It is very easy to get a horse to fall out of the studbook but basically impossible to get one back in.

MandyE
29-03-04, 05:13 PM
DD, I suggest you re-read Falkenhorst's post, which actually talks about the ancestry of the TB in Britain, where it originated.

Our own Australian Studbook DOES exclude dilutes, I don't know why, but the evidence that Falkenhorst has presented indicates that they have existed in the TB from the earliest times in Great Britain. The Byerly Turk was one of the founding stallions of the TB breed, along with the Godolphin Arabian and the Darley Arabian who are the three main influences.

THANK YOU Falkenhorst for this information, it actually clears up a lot of things for me! The painting you've posted of Whistleblower (sp?), clearly shows either a flaxen chestnut, or a dark palomino! Having read Jeanette Gower's excellent Horse Colour Explained from cover to cover several times and back again, I understand clearly how it is possible for dilutes to 'hide' and be masked by other factors, such as the greying gene, and also smokey black or dark buckskin.

I've often wondered where the palomino colour originated, so by your example Gwen, am I correct in thinking that it could have originated in the Akkel Tekke? (sp?) I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

DD, from what Falkenhorst has said, it is clear that in Europe and United States, dilutes are accepted into the TB studbooks as PURE TB's. It's just our backward little colony who refuse to change, lol!

OK Laverne, now I have a better idea of where you're coming from :-)

Look, I agree with you in part, in that the QH would not really offer much to the 'dressage horse' due to it's purpose bred conformation - to generalise. That aside and slightly off the topic, there are QH's who can turn in quite good dressage performances, I witnessed a QH/TB today perform a 65% HRCAV Advanced test (Medium level), and had the rider not told me earlier the horse was a QH X, then I would have assumed it was a wb/TB cross. So I guess it's up to each individual breeder to assess each mare on her own merits, and decide if she has anything to offer when breeding for dressage, if that is the case.

And I will reiterate, that the stockhorse lines I have used are predominantly TB, so to that end I consider that I am introducing a TB to my breeding program, not just a stockhorse. I don't think much at all of the 'trendy' quarterhorse breeding fashion these days, and I agree that to use one of these types of QH's would definately be detrimental to a dressage breeding program!

I guess the reason the Europeans haven't picked up on the stockhorses, is that they don't have them there, lol!

Once again, each horse on its merits. Even European warmblood breeders will assess each horse individually on its merits, and if it's not up to scratch, it won't be used for breeding. Simple. I follow the same philosophy. The reason I used the stockhorse mare was not FOR her colour, but because she has quite good movement and good basic conformation - her first foal was a gamble, I admit, but at the time the stallion was carefully considered to compliment the mare, and fortunately the gamble paid off and I now have a very nice foal. We will give this foal a year to grow and develop, before we decide whether to continue to use the mare in our breeding program.

Incidentally Laverne, Belcam Stud in Queensland bred a palomino colt several years ago now, by Belcam Aalto, out of a mare called Stella. This colt was sold at their Auction in 2001 and went to Germany with Ulrich (sp?) Klatte's brother! Both parents were grey, and in this example it was the mare who masked the dilution gene. Going by the catalogue, themare was by Fremder, and she was out of a TB called Plainlight (by Big Plains out of Gas Light) all indicated as XX. Now I know there was some discussion about this at the time, and I remember reading somewhere that the mare had produced a buckskin foal. So here is the classic case of the mare being a dilute masked by the greying gene!

MandyE
29-03-04, 06:56 PM
grrr, crashed again, drat!

Ernie, we keep going round in circles! I do plan to use our Jazz filly to eventually breed a palomino, however I'm aware that this is a sensational filly, so whatever stallion I choose will have to do her justice. Should Jenny get a palomino colt from her mare in foal to Weltmeyer, that would have to be considered I guess! You're quite right, I have a huge choice of frozen semen stallions. That is also part of my future plan - like any good breeder I'm already thinking three or more generations ahead. I hope, if my Alabaster grandson is as good as I think he is, to put him over the Jazz filly, with a lot of luck, this would give me a palomino filly, which I could then use to breed to my choice of frozen semen stallions. Chestnut or palomino foal, won't matter, it will still be a bloody good horse! I am also planning to use ET with this filly to give me a bit more scope as I'll be riding her.

I'm aiming for the 'middle range' market with my breeding program, but that's no reason why my horses wouldn't be able to get to GP with the right rider, especially using the bloodlines I have in mind.

Hey, Ernie and Laverne, the bait must have been too strong, thought you guys were going to call it a day!!?? :-)

Cheers,

Mandy

FALKENHORST
29-03-04, 09:03 PM
Mandy, yes the dilution gene can only have come into the TBs by the influence of the Turk horses (the Achal-Tekkes) Darc'ys Yellow Turk, there is alreaedy the "yellow" (he was buckskin) in his name. Whistlejacket was a dark Palomino. Darcys Yellow Turk is found several times in the ancestry of my Palomino TB colt. In the USA and in Europe there no such thing as a TB stud book and the JC. Here in Europe and in the USA, a TB does only get TB papers IF it is a purebred TB and conveived via naturla cover, otherwise no paper at all. The JC and the studbook is ONE single registry.

ernie
30-03-04, 04:11 AM
Darcy's Yellow Turk is not in the General Studbook. the General Studbook (English) is THE studbook for thoroughbred horses. There are no dilutes in this studbook. Australian thoroughbreds are accepted into the General StudBook, but the American ones, for instance, are not. Worth thinking about.

I remember the discussion about the palomino colt sold to Europe. I think it was Jaybee who questioned the XX after the mare Stella's name but will stand corrected. Because nobody could find her sire in any studbook.

We also have a Jockey Club registry for racehorses but not necessarily thoroughbreds.

Mandy you said:
" ... whatever stallion I choose will have to do her justice. Should Jenny get a palomino colt from her mare in foal to Weltmeyer, that would have to be considered I guess!"
... and I guess that is saying "no matter how good he is, I won't use him unless he's a palomino."

That's all I've been saying all along.

Laverne
30-03-04, 06:30 AM
Nah you've got me confused with someone else Mandy. I never said I would call it a day, but both Ernie & Centaur did, although I notice Ernie has been drawn back to the discussion. :-) I've said all along how interesting I'm finding this topic, so I can't understand why you think I would opt out?

Now Mandy, let me just clarify a few things with you. I am NOT canning palomino horses, in fact I said in one of my earlier posts that I love the look of a real golden palomino horse. Nor am I saying that simply because a horse is a palomino colour, it is not capable of achieving great results. The great Weltmeyer (who was previously mentioned) would be no less great if he was a pally, bay or bright pink, although there are years and years and years of skillful breeding expertise in his pedigree, and if that had deviated just marginally anywhere along the way, there would be no Weltmeyer.

The Belcam colt you spoke of was not bred aiming for a palomino so the success or otherwise of this colt can't surely be claimed as a 'palomino breeding victory' ??? And from memory, there was a lot of discussion on his mare's pedigree regarding her TB status? Anyway, that is irrelevant to our discussion here, which has evolved to breeding palomino dressage horses. However, to get back to my earlier query to you, considering the successful performance horse (dressage) breeders just in Australia, how many of them are using QH, stockhorse, Morgan etc., bloodlines in their programs? So by utilising specific coloured horses of these breeds in a palomino breeding program, you have to admit it is for colour only? Because if these breeds of horses (of any colour) were able to improve the dressage horse, they would be used not just here, but extensively throughout the world.

The QH cross you saw at the adult riding competition sounds like a lovely horse and again, I'm not saying every QH cross can't do dressage, but how many would you have to breed to get that one good one? And without taking anything away from that combination, I think their score was 65% at the equivalent to EFA medium, so that's only bordering between satisfactory and fairly good. (But just as an aside, I wonder how that same combination would go at an official medium comp?)

I've just come back to my post after having a brainstorm which I tried to research without success. Many, many years ago, in the late 1800's or early 1900's there was a little stockhorse stallion called Saladdin (?) who was a creamy palomino colour, and he was a ripper little jumper and camp drafter. I think an editorial like Hoofs & Horns did a write up on him back in the 70's, but from memory, he is one of the foundation sires of the stockhorse and I think Saladdin himself was actually sired by a Timor pony.

EA
30-03-04, 06:38 AM
Falkenhorst, I have read your post and the repeat thanks, and again you only state which studbooks the foals are registered with. The other statement is that horses are all with Notable German studbooks. It does not say which studbooks the stallions are licensed with. If it does I must be blind.

Which of the Australian TB are Palamino? I dont know of any. The only that I had heard about here was not actually studbook registered only in the appendix registry.

The rule is all good and well but are there actually any coloured TB's and for those that are there what are their bloodlines?

EA
30-03-04, 06:51 AM
Finally a straight answer.

Yes the ZfDP is a member, however I would not call it a major studbook. Oldenberg is also much more liberal in the horses that they accept, so I am not surprised they would accept coloured horses.

Thanks I was really only looking for confirmation that the major studbooks ie Holstein, Hannovarian, Selle Francais etc dont accept them, as that was my understanding.

MandyE
30-03-04, 04:22 PM
Sorry Laverne, it's usually late at night when I manage to get on here and my brain doesn't work so well at that time, anyway it's good to have you participate as it's continuing to be quite a stimulating discussion :-)

Ernie, you said "... and I guess that is saying "no matter how good he is, I won't use him unless he's a palomino." "

Well no, that's not really what I meant, rather that if the Weltmeyer foal happens to turn out palomino and a colt, chances are it would be a pretty good sort (I've met the mare and she certainly passes muster and is a very nice type), so with those bloodlines it would be worth considering for our very special Jazz filly. Yes, I am breeding with the hope of producing colour, but not going to be limited by that factor alone when choosing stallions, and I'm certainly not going to restrict myself to 'colour' for every foal I breed. I plan to improve on my breeding stock by retaining fillies to improve my mare band like any sensible breeder, and to that end I will of necessity have to use solid coloured warmblood stallions to produce, hopefully, some chestnut fillies for this purpose.

Laverne, I can't speak for any other breeders in other states, but I know a handful in Victoria who are using warmbloods in their palomino breeding program, and their mares are mostly stockhorse bred from the TB lines I cited earlier as well as others who are predominantly TB. None of the breeders I am thinking of are using QH based palominos, and I don't know of anyone who even HAS a palomino Morgan (didn't even know there was such a creature! :-)). Sure, I guess there would be some part-arabians in the equation but usually taller ones with a good dose of TB.

I don't consider myself a 'palomino breeder' as such - there's so many of them in Victoria that I don't want to try and breed on that level - and by that I mean those established breeders who breed palominos as mostly show horses and compete in their breed classes against other palominos. Rather, I would say I think of myself as breeding warmblood horses with dressage as a major focus, and using some suitable palomino coloured horses who have the performances and/or abilities to lend themselves to producing dressage oriented horses.

I don't speak for anyone else, but from what I've seen of Jen's Mr B and his progeny and her mares, my impression is that she is doing roughly the same, only with a little bit more experience at it than me, lol!

The mare who produced the Belcam palomino colt, Stella, was by Fremder, who should need no introduction, out of a XX mare Plainlight. Now I checked for the mare in the ASB, and she isn't listed, but her sire Big Plains is, however her dam Gas Light is not. I cited this colt as an example of how the dilution gene can be masked by the greying gene, not to highlight him as a palomino breeding triumph, lol. I remember reading somewhere that Stella had also produced a buckskin some time earlier to a solid coloured stallion, so obviously the dilute came from her.

Laverne, I've been meaning to ask, what type of 'coloured' horses were you researching when you were considering your breeding program?

Thanks again Gwen for your input. Just out of interest, what colour was the Byerly Turk?

'Night all!

Mandy :-)

Milton Lover
31-03-04, 01:26 AM
"Did Milton lose a leg when it came out that he was by the
Connemara teaser and not the WB stallion Marius? Milton
would have been a great horse regardless of his colour but
do you think his fan club would have been as big if he
hadn't been white (grey) ? "

I think you might find that this is very incorrect information and was a story which went around well before Milton died - he was DNA tested etc. and he is by Marius without a doubt!!! The Bradley's have the paperwork to prove this to be the case.

And you obviously never saw him "in the flesh" competing or else you would never ask whether his fan club would have been as big had he not been white!!! It was his personality which won the hearts and his heart over a fence - his colour was not the issue - Whittakers "other white stallion" Randi who is a dead ringer in looks to Milton never developed a fan club because he isn't Milton and doesn't have his personality, try or life! Simple really - never a question of colour - someone else said it earlier - a good horse is never a bad colour!

Cate
31-03-04, 05:39 AM
Well actually there are dilutes in the Engilsh TB Studbook, but they are called Chestnut or Bay, rather than Palomino or Buckskin, because there were only a set number of colours you can register a TB, and Palomino wasn't one of them!! This may have changed, going by what Gwen says. There is a horse in the States which is a JC horse who is registered as Chestnut called Lookspalominotome. The Cremello TB's in the States are also registered as Chestnut because there is no cremello colour option on the registration form either. The Austrailan Studbook would accept Palominos (but they would likely have to be called Chestnut) given DNA tests and recognised Studbook (or equivilant in other countries) parents, conceived through natural cover. :-)

jaybee
31-03-04, 07:33 AM
Laverne & Ernie, you got me wrong. I was only answering the "what happens to the plain coloured ones" question, not questioning your riding ethic.
I must admit after the last post I had a cold shower & felt ashamed of myself.
The non riding breeders I was referring to are those who see one and only ONE 'VERBAND' as the light on the hill and are more diciples(I know I have spelled that wrong, but just cant seem to make it work) than members. They forgive any fault in their "Verband" registered horse and discard all others.
Just to give everyone something to think about: Thoroughbred Stud Book Palominos. The gene that produces palominos also produces buckskins. It is a dominant gene only covered by grey. The foal is still born buckskin or palomino. I repeat. It is a dominant gene. If there were palomino or buckskin thoroughbreds (Stud Book), there would be as many about as there are GREY thoroughbreds. I have been going to the races for 50 years and the only palomino racehorse I have seen was Palleo Hank and he was an imported running quarter horse, and a very good racehorse who took on the thoroughbreds on metropolitan racetracks on the East Coast and Won... and I do know what a palomino looks like.
BEV

FALKENHORST
31-03-04, 08:40 AM
Bev, a lot of people who do not know the working of the cream gene, do not know how a dark buckskin looks and it is not a real dominant gene, it is "pseudo" or "semi" dominant as the black does not show it. I had two smoky blacks born the last years and they carry the cream gene, but they are in fact looking black.

DD
31-03-04, 11:44 AM
I agree with Bev. If there were Genuine Studbook TB's out there we would see alot more of them as they are a semi-dominant gene. I am yet to see a palomino or a buckskin race.
You do see a couple of JC reg horse on the internet that are in the USA. But JC is not the same as STUDBOOK. JC is just a registration that allows a horse to race, they don't have to be TB only to be JC registered.

ernie
31-03-04, 01:12 PM
Precisely Bev.

Let's hope now that the subject of "palomino thoroughbreds" can be put to rest.

Centaur
31-03-04, 04:55 PM
Geez Milton Lover, I know I said I'd stay out of this debate before I said something I'd regret, but I am SO glad someone pointed out the bs factor in the Connmemara teaser theory! And yes, I saw Milton in the flesh too and he would have had a fan club if he'd have been sky blue pink!
Oh, also the Whittakers did have another 'personality' horse in their stable before Milton. And he had as big a fan club, roof lifted off Earls Court stadium when he entered the arena....remember Ryan's Son???
God bless 'im, and he was a plain ole bay!

Milton Lover
31-03-04, 05:44 PM
Oh Centaur - how wonderful was Ryan's Son - and you are so right - a very plain bay really but it was like being at a soccer match waiting for him to enter the stadium!

I am still ploughing through all these listings here trying to work out why on earth anyone would actually be breeding for colour - makes not much sense to me but I s'pose each to his own, or hers as the case may be.

Sort of reminds me of the Sloane Rangers who changed fashion according to what matched the hair dye they were using. Wouldn't it be easier to just dress up a horse of any colour in gear rather than trying to breed for colour?

I reckon breeding is a hard enough breeding live foals that make it to breaking stage let alone be specific about the colour they are going to be.

MandyE
31-03-04, 07:04 PM
Dilutes existed in some of the founding sires of the TB breed. As Gwen stated earlier, palominos were not registered with their correct colour on the paperwork, but instead were registered as chestnut.

I personally don't know of any 'studbook' (read that as Australian Studbook) palomino thoroughbreds in Australia, although there are plenty that were/are AJC registered.

Here's a link which has some background info on Darcy's Yellow Turk, who was also known as Dodsworth. You will see by following this info, that he was behind Eclipse, Herod, and Matchem, among others. Our ASB records show all of these 'founding' sires, but don't go much further back. Eclipse was said to have 6 lines tracing back to the Yellow Turk. [www.bloodlines.net/TB/Summaries/DarcysYellowTurk.htm]

And this: [www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Brilliant.htm] which clearly indicates a buckskin who was out of a palomino mare.

As I understand it, unlike other countries, Australia is unique in that our Australian Studbook is separate to what used to be called AJC registered horses, or what are now called 'non-thoroughbreds'. In Europe and the United States at least, the AJC IS the 'studbook'. To be entered or receive papers in these counries, a horse must be full TB.

The example Gwen talks about in post #64, is a classic example of how dilutes were incorrectly recorded as 'chestnut' and this was rectified once she imported the horses to Germany and they were DNA verified.

I strongly recommend reading Horse Colour Explained, as it talks about variations in colours for TB's. Palominos and buckskins are not the only 'abberations', there are also photos of extremely rare roan TB's, and of course, Colourful Gambler, who is a sabino. I've seen this horse, and he looks for all the world like a knabstrupper, at least to my unschooled eye for broken colour! But he is registered as a 'white stallion'.

From what you say Gwen, it sounds as though the TB studbooks in other countries are coming to realise that the TB DOES have dilutes, and are recognising them as such. So hopefully Australia will follow suite.

Palomino stallion Oro Superbrat, who is the sire of my stockhorse mare, is 95% thoroughbred, and 5% arabian. He has a double cross to Claredale Champagne Charlie, who was probably the most influentual non-quarterhorse stockhorse registered palomino stallion in Victoria. He is thoroughbred, and AJC registered but under a different name (it escapes me now).

Bev, there have been a few palominos who have raced in Victoria in country meets, I remember seeing one of them in a newspaper clipping once about 15 years ago, but I can't remember where or what the horse's name was. The clip was reproduced at the time in the APHA Victorian newsletter so I have it somewhere but I'm not going to look for it!

As for putting it to bed, that's where I'm going, but you guys have got me all fired up to do the in-depth research now, so be warned! I'll be BACK! lol :-)

Mandy

FALKENHORST
31-03-04, 08:26 PM
I think it is very narrow minded to want to put something to rest that does not comply with someones ideas. In all over the world - except Australia apparently! - the studbook and JC IS ONE AND THE SAME. What is in the main studbooks is automatically in the JC and vice versa. I hope this is clear now. The only country apparently that has that done in two parts is Australia. In the USA the JC IS the studbook and so it is in all over Europe and in other countries too. And the motherland of the Thoroughbred IS Great Britain and the Yellow Turk IS in the studbooks. I do not want to go on and on with something that is now clear like water and the mistake was made by those that registered the Palominos as chestnuts so they did never really "exist" in the TB breeding as they were not entered with their correct color. But in reality the dilutes have always existed right from the beginning. So did the Sabino Pintos as Mandy stated. There are even Frame Overo TBs in existence and they race! If you do not believe this, go look at this website http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/index.html and you will see a lot of PURE and JC/full studbook registered TBs in Pinto coloring.

Centaur
01-04-04, 04:02 AM
Well that's an interesting comment from the side that is banging on and on about dilute genes and palomino race horses etc etc. What the hell has any of this got to do with breeding PERFORMANCE horses? It's a COLOUR gene, not a TALENT gene. Who CARES about the TB studbook, they breed for speed, we don't.
Mandy E mentioned that she will breed from palomino mares that have done well in dressage or appear to have the potential to do well in dressage. Just how many palamino mares have you known IN AUSTRALIA, that have done ANYTHING any good in dressage??? ONE...Peaches & Cream, that's it..uno! How many really good mares do we have that have done well in Australia?? Not a whole hell of a lot yet but the numbers are growing. Interesting to note that there were a lot of good young mares at DWTS this year...any palamino's???? NONE, not bloody one.
Now, it wasn't narrow mindedness that made me bow out, it was the fact that this is a small community for a large country, and we are in danger of pointing out some examples if we aren't careful and some of us (rather nobely I thought)that that would be unfair.
Bottom line for me is, I think breeding for colour is a shallow practise to which they are entitled, but keep the words "Performance Horses" out of it, you're not entitled to it...in this country at least.
This is NOT to say anything bad about palomino's...I would definitely buy one if it had the attributes i was looking for.

elle
01-04-04, 01:05 PM
Hi all,

I have just finnished reading all of these posts!

I have been breeding WB's for a few short years, and only 1 per year at the moment. I have a 2 of my 3 over 5 years old are doing quite well on the EFA dressage & eventing scene with their respective homes.

I have used a variety of international and Austrlian bloodlines through AI & fresh over the last 8 years. Guess what I aim to breed Chestnuts!!! I have always loved and owned big chestnuts with white markings, its a personal preferance. So what if people are aiming to bred palomino WB's, at the end of the day a horse is a horse and if correctly bred in the first place will always have a market.

I would not hesitate to buy a well bred WB broodmare who was a pally or any other colour as I would still be able to have my choice of colour stallions and can try to make a match that will improve and complement my mares.

Whilst I agree to try and breed the 'best horse possible' at the end of the day only a select few are ever going to make the grade as olympic horses. I would prefer to know that my horses have excellent caring homes (as would most breeders that I know).

I have also been in the position as a rider when my young chestnut behaved like an unresponsive lazy slug (I can be harsh but fair on my horses) in a champion / reserve workout but still was awarded champion over another hack who worked far better (and was actually competing at medium level dressage) came second. I actually appealed this decision and had the placings reversed becuase I felt the desicion was based on the fact that the other hack was a paint.

All I am saying is that we all have our preferances. I admit that a beautiful dark pally gets my imediate attention as does a chestnut with white markings but it the presence, movement & confirmation is not there then I quickly move on.

I see no reason why the practise of breeding pally WB's should not be continued so long as it is truly selective. There is certainly a market out there for the solid colours that may result from these quality matings.

All the best to all of the people contributing to this discussion!

Elle.

EPL
01-04-04, 02:03 PM
OH Dear, I was gonna stay out of this, but blow up??? Yeah and Peaches and Cream I suppose wasn't a QH???? So let's just see what she has produced to a WB(which WILL be a WB). And so far as speed goes, a lot of TB's I know are purpose bred for jumping. So as in the USA why not for colour????

Cat.

Calypso
01-04-04, 03:28 PM
I don't understand people with a bee up their behinds about coloured "warmblood" horses.

People can use the term "performance horses" if they so wish about them - they are "entitled" to use whatever words they consider appropriate. Lord knows every other warmblood breeder does - along with "stunning dressage prospect".

The fact is many dressage riders do want to add colour to their wish list, and there's warmblood breeders smart enough to try to fill that need. So long as they stick to sound breeding principles like any breeder, where's the fire?

Let's be honest here, look at the amount of mediocre warmbloods being churned out now. Thousands. Those breeders don't even have "breeding for colour" as their excuse.

Of course there's going to be very few palomino dressage horses at the top. Very few are bred. If one palomino out of the few that are bred make it to the top, the ratio would probably be better than that of the thousands of bays that are bred and the tiny percentage of them that make it to the top. How many white (max sabino) thoroughbreds have won the Melbourne Cup? How many bays have won the Melbourne Cup?

What about all those warmbloods that just happen to have four white feet - do those flash white socks make them more talented? Nosiree, but they sure look pretty and it saves on white bandages!
;)

Cheers
Calypso

MandyE
01-04-04, 03:29 PM
OK, regarding the thoroughbred/dilute issue, the jury is out to lunch from my perspective while I do the research. Watch this space…..

Centaur, first of all, discussion in this topic turned to dilute TB as an EXAMPLE of introducing quality PERFORMANCE bred TB and TB type horses of dilute colour. If every WARMBLOOD breeder were to have the same attitude as you “who CARES about the TB studbook, they breed for speed, we don’t” – then the WARMBLOOD breed as it stands today wouldn’t EXIST. Or am I wrong in thinking/believing that the major warmblood studbooks in Europe introduced and continue to use TB stallions to refine and improve movement????

Secondly, the breeders I know, and myself, who are breeding palomino warmbloods, are trying very hard to produce quality stock that are just as good as any other warmblood foal available in this country – in fact they need to be better than average to counteract the colour prejudice – we are using selective breeding also - HELLO, just repeating that last yet again so maybe you’ll get what I’m saying? Must be wasting my breath…..

Yes, you’re quite right to point out Peaches n Cream. There was also Carillo, although of course he was a gelding. And also Jaybee Apache who is of course a buckskin colt by Aachmides and was the highest scoring colt at DWTS the year he competed, but maybe that just conveniently slipped your mind…..

What gives you the bloody right to say “but keep the words "Performance Horses" out of it, you're not entitled to it...in this country at least” How can you make such an elitist, cynical, narrow minded comment without knowing the horses in question, or knowing the inside of the breeders head to understand their philosophy and breeding program? Oh, I get it, with a name like Centaur, you must think you’re some kind of mythical God. Ah, that makes sense, of courrse!

Unfortunately it’s views such as yours that have thus far kept dilute breeders in the ‘back blocks’ so to speak, and too afraid to bring their good horses out into main stream EFA dressage for fear of being canned by the ignorant – not saying that it happens all the time, but in the past it has. Just because a horse (cite – palomino) only competes in HRCAV competition for example, doesn’t mean it couldn’t compete EFA – every horse is limited/enhanced by the rider who owns it. The basic attributes are still required, the same trainability, attitude and quality of paces – and that is easy to tell if a breeder knows their business.

You make a comment about ‘How many really good mares do we have that have done well in Australia?? Not a whole hell of a lot yet but the numbers are growing. Interesting to note that there were a lot of good young mares at DWTS this year...any palamino's???? NONE, not bloody one.”

Well, as to the mares competing part of that statement, the numbers will support that I guess. Maybe that’s because breeders choose to KEEP their good fillies in an effort to improve their breeding???!!!! With the popularity of ET in breeding these ‘good’ mares, we may just see more of them out competing. Many people will agree though, that mares are a little trickier to deal with, hormones and all, so that could be a factor as well. However, that’s not part of the issue here. I guess time will tell, warmblood breeders all over Australia are improving their stock by use of frozen semen as you succinctly pointed out. You can add palomino warmblood breeders to that equation.

Now, while we’re on the subject of DWTS, since when is that the only yardstick over whether a young horse is any good or not????!!!! It’s more a breeders showcase for my money – I enjoy watching it, but I don’t think I’d like to put any of my 3 ½ year olds through that sort of pressure. Congratulations to those who manage to qualify and then do well, but I’m still deciding whether or not if its for me. I’d have to seriously consider though, whether or not to qualify and enter my colt when the time comes, just to show narrow minded people like yourself that, HELLO, we are HERE and you’re going to have to live with our PALOMINO warmbloods, like it or not!

And while we’re on the subject of selective breeding for colour, what about all those people who hope to breed a true black? Or those who don’t want to breed chestnuts, or perhaps avoid greys? IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT to selectively breeding for palomino or buckskin???!!!

When you said in relation to mares in general that ‘the numbers are growing’, that also applies to we who are of a ‘golden’ persuasion. Give us a few years, we’ll be out there ‘performing’ with our coloured PERFORMANCE WARMBLOODS right beside the rest of you, thank you VERY much!

My apologies if I’ve offended anyone with my reply to Centaur, and I don’t normally bite as I prefer to keep myself above the mud slinging. That’s why I post under my own name. Others need to hind behind nicknames and feel free to slam others with their opinions. We were enjoying a rational, interesting discussion Centaur until you stepped back into the fray and completely changed the tone. Perhaps you can now gallop back across the plain and go back to your herd, they are calling you…………

Night all,

Mandy
;-)

MandyE
01-04-04, 03:36 PM
*sigh* - thanks Calypso!

;-) Mandy

ernie
01-04-04, 05:22 PM
Oh come on Mandy. Did it ever occur to you that some people contributing here might be well-known judges/riders/instructors who wish to remain anonymous? Who perhaps have more knowledge in their little fingers etc ... well you know the rest I'm sure.

I've given up on this thread for reasons of sanity. If you guys want to breed grey warmbloods or brown warmbloods or chestnut warmbloods or palomino warmbloods ... and if that's all that counts for you .. then go for it. As somebody .. Calypso?? said ... there are heaps of crappy warmblood horses bred and I think I said that in my first post - but I would always hope that they were crappy horses because of bad luck rather than from bad breeding principles. And I'm sorry, but there's no way anybody could convince me that breeding principally for colour is anything but a bad breeding principle. It's always the horses who suffer because of our conceit.

Centaur
01-04-04, 06:00 PM
I apologise in advance for using the old 'reply with quote' mode, but I don't want to miss replying to any of Mandys pearls of wisdom.

>Centaur, first of all, discussion in this topic turned to
>dilute TB as an EXAMPLE of introducing quality PERFORMANCE
>bred TB and TB type horses of dilute colour. If every
>WARMBLOOD breeder were to have the same attitude as you “who
>CARES about the TB studbook, they breed for speed, we don’t”
>– then the WARMBLOOD breed as it stands today wouldn’t
>EXIST. Or am I wrong in thinking/believing that the major
>warmblood studbooks in Europe introduced and continue to use
>TB stallions to refine and improve movement????

The TB studbook is concerned with racehorse bloodlines. The fact that they have been introduced to many breeds doesn't concern the TB Studbook people. They still breed to produce racehorses. No one is discounting the TB contribution to the WB breed, or many other breeds for that matter. But they were used, as you said, to refine the quality, not to introuduce colour.

>Secondly, the breeders I know, and myself, who are breeding
>palomino warmbloods, are trying very hard to produce quality
>stock that are just as good as any other warmblood foal
>available in this country – in fact they need to be better
>than average to counteract the colour prejudice – we are
>using selective breeding also - HELLO, just repeating that
>last yet again so maybe you’ll get what I’m saying? Must be
>wasting my breath…..

I don't doubt it and I haven't suggested that quality is not a concern to coloured breeders. I still believe that colour, for most of you, is of greater concern than performance lines. Who was it who called for a cremmello mare for lease? Only stipulation being that is over 15.1???? That didn't sound very 'perfromance orientated'to me.

>Yes, you’re quite right to point out Peaches n Cream. There
>was also Carillo, although of course he was a gelding. And
>also Jaybee Apache who is of course a buckskin colt by
>Aachmides and was the highest scoring colt at DWTS the year
>he competed, but maybe that just conveniently slipped your
>mind…..

No, of course not. I was giving examples of palomino mares. Why would I name a bucksin colt or a palomino gelding???

>What gives you the bloody right to say “but keep the words
>"Performance Horses" out of it, you're not entitled to
>it...in this country at least” How can you make such an
>elitist, cynical, narrow minded comment without knowing the
>horses in question, or knowing the inside of the breeders
>head to understand their philosophy and breeding program?

Same right as you've got to call yourself a 'perfromance horse breeder' when you haven't yet produced a performance horse. And how do you know I don't know the horses in question? I have seen some of the results so far.

>Oh, I get it, with a name like Centaur, you must think
>you’re some kind of mythical God. Ah, that makes sense, of
>courrse!

Don't be so bloody childish, it doesn't add any punch to your debate. I have refrained from any personal insults, try and do the same.
>
>Unfortunately it’s views such as yours that have thus far
>kept dilute breeders in the ‘back blocks’ so to speak, and
>too afraid to bring their good horses out into main stream
>EFA dressage for fear of being canned by the ignorant – not
>saying that it happens all the time, but in the past it has.
>Just because a horse (cite – palomino) only competes in
>HRCAV competition for example, doesn’t mean it couldn’t
>compete EFA – every horse is limited/enhanced by the rider
>who owns it. The basic attributes are still required, the
>same trainability, attitude and quality of paces – and that
>is easy to tell if a breeder knows their business.

Oh, I see! We haven't seen any good palomino's out there because the owners are afraid of ignorant attitudes such as mine!!! Give me a break! Dressage is all about putting your training, breeding etc on the line. Get used to it.

>Now, while we’re on the subject of DWTS, since when is that
>the only yardstick over whether a young horse is any good or
>not????!!!! It’s more a breeders showcase for my money – I
>enjoy watching it, but I don’t think I’d like to put any of
>my 3 ½ year olds through that sort of pressure.

I didn't say it was the only yardstick. It's one. Surely your 4 year olds could cope with the 'pressure' of doing a basic prelim test?? Otherwise why the hell would you be skiting about their possible performance status? If you want to make a name as a breeder, you have to put your stock out there, and DWTS is one hell of a showcase. Just ask Bev.


>And while we’re on the subject of selective breeding for
>colour, what about all those people who hope to breed a true
>black? Or those who don’t want to breed chestnuts, or
>perhaps avoid greys? IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT to selectively
>breeding for palomino or buckskin???!!!

Nope, it's just as shallow.

>When you said in relation to mares in general that ‘the
>numbers are growing’, that also applies to we who are of a
>‘golden’ persuasion. Give us a few years, we’ll be out there
>‘performing’ with our coloured PERFORMANCE WARMBLOODS right
>beside the rest of you, thank you VERY much!

And best of luck to you too.

>My apologies if I’ve offended anyone with my reply to
>Centaur, and I don’t normally bite as I prefer to keep
>myself above the mud slinging. That’s why I post under my
>own name. Others need to hind behind nicknames and feel free
>to slam others with their opinions. We were enjoying a
>rational, interesting discussion Centaur until you stepped
>back into the fray and completely changed the tone. Perhaps
>you can now gallop back across the plain and go back to your
>herd, they are calling you…………

Mandy, of course you don't hide behind a nickname. You are trying to make a name for yourself. I'm not. I slung no mud. I called the practise shallow, not the people. I also said you are entitled to do it. Why are you making silly remarks about my nickname???
For your information I once owned a cremello showjumping pony. I have said till I'm blue in the face that a good horse is never a bad colour and I wouldn't hestitate to buy or ride a good horse, be it pally, appy, black, whatever.
Debate the issue, don't get personal.

And to the people who have replied with the 'what about' comments (i.e what about advertsing "stunning dressage prospect" etc etc) Pointing out other shallow or bullshit behaviour doesn't make the original issue any better!!! Thats like "but he was talking too Miss!!!"

Sad!

Centaur
01-04-04, 06:05 PM
Gee, I wish I'd said that!

Oh, one thing I forgot to add...there is a fairly sound reason for avoiding greys (and I have owned at least 3 of them so far!) in the breeding game. And that is of course, melanomas. Poor buggers.

relevant
01-04-04, 09:22 PM
eeek, im a little bit scared to comment here now after all that angst...but yust a little piece of information that may intrest the original readers of this forum. Natalie Blundell, successfull event rider from Harden has bred a pally colt by Cool Cat xx out of her pally eventing mare. Yeah I know cool Cat is tb but is reg with awha.Just thought i would let u know... ciao.

Cate
02-04-04, 01:44 AM
The point of bringing up Palomino TB's is to show that the Palomino colour came from there, rather than from some other source. TBs are used to upgrade WBs (as are Arabs and AAs), the modern WB wouldn't have happened without TBs, you would still have the 1900's carriage and light draft horses, with the exception of the Trakehner which was bred as a riding horse.
And yes while TB industry is only concerned with how fast they can run, they also preserve pedigree, and that is what is also important in WB breeding, its the part of what makes them Warmbloods rather than Crossbreds.
As for performance...it can be defined in many ways... not just success in the 3 olympic diciplines or dressage as some people seem to define it LOL :7.... there is endurance, driving, stockwork, western etc.

Horsiebella
02-04-04, 08:17 AM
Bev I just wanted to say all your horses are beautiful and I just bought a little filly out of Dublin from Jaybee Leuwin. She is going to be a star!

Love Bella

Laverne
03-04-04, 12:22 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the thrust of someone's input (I think Falkenhorst ??? ) is that the palomino colour, in the earlier TB's, was more prominent early on, but was originally, supposedly incorrectly recorded as 'chestnut.' The thing I just can't get my head around, is the laws of evolution should be applied when breeding for 'performance horses' if you strive to always improve the breed, or at least maintain the high standard previously achieved.

The whole concept of successful evolution, is that the strong survive and the weak fall by the wayside. Now this is not dissimilar to the knowledge and breeding practices of the very, very established European studs, who have a wealth of 'performance horse' knowledge, spanning years and years and years. They are constantly aiming to improve their already proven bloodlines when producing dressage performance horses, and no-one could possibly say they aren't miles ahead of everyone else in the world. So whilst this is not a 'natural' evolution, it is still a matter of breeding for strength in a particular area, and allowing certain genetic strengths to become more dominant. Given that if we are to accept the palomino TB existed very early on, (which it seems is still very in dispute) and such palomino's were albeit recorded incorrectly as chestnut, surely if those horses were suitable for the ongoing improvement of the 'dressage performance horse' there would be a few more, proven palomino's around today?

I think (and I may be very wrong) the term "performance horse" is probably the problem, in that it seems to have two different meanings. For those competing dressage at a competitive level, where it's more than a hobby and may influence or reflect that person's riding or coaching career, the term "performance horse" takes on a professional and merit based interpretation. There was a business in the area where we used to live, who did not breed, but bought cheap cross breds to turn over, and they very proudly advertised, and use signage to promote their business as " X Park, Performance Horse & Equestrian Centre ". Given that the 'performance horses' they sold, mainly to adult riders, were poorly conformed TB's or TB crosses, I have to admit, their signage and use of the words 'performance horse' confused me. And yet strangely enough, very few of these 'performance horses' were still on the scene 6 months later, although their riders were still around, but on different horses. But I digress ...

I still would like to know, if the early palomino (or golden chestnut) TB's were of such a good quality, and worthy of consideration and inclusion by early European breeders when striving to produce "dressage performance horses", why aren't there more around now? Why weren't they used more at the time, which would mean their genetic pool would be much larger now, and we'd have heaps more palomino's? It wouldn't have mattered whether their colour was recorded incorrectly - a piece of paper can't change the horses' genes, so if these 'golden chestnut' horses were used, the gene pool would have been expanded and there would be far more golden horses with white manes & tails. The fact that there isn't, indicates that it was the horses themselves who were not suitable, not their colour.

ernie
03-04-04, 02:27 AM
Aaah Laverne - I do love a logical mind. :-)

There'd also be a lot of dilute Thoroughbreds running around too. Jaybee's already said that.

Cate
03-04-04, 02:46 AM
While they were around, way back when, they were still rasonably unusual, and in many cases excluded from breeding and racing because of their colour, so unless they were a dark Palomino, Buckskin or smokey black, they would be chucked out (if not killed at birth) because people would suspect the teaser or something else had jumped the fence, the same applies to the loud sabinos I suspect. A horse carrying the Creme gene has a 50% chance of passing it on, when bred, so unless you are actively selecting for it, you get relatively few horses carrying it to the next generation.... have a look at the number of grey TBs as an example.... and greys weren't actively culled :-(
Some of the German Studbooks discriminate against certain colours.... like chestnut, so no Palominos happening there, but a buckskin or smokey black may sneak in.... But again if they produced Palomino it would have been chucked out, because they would suspect it was not "pure".
In the original Trakehner broodmare herds, there was the Black herd, and a Bay herd, so colours were being bred for in the 19th century.
They also breed blood over bone, so TB stallions over WB mares rather than the other way round, so the stallions has a large influence.... so if Creme gene TB stallions are few and far between anyway what are the chances of one being selected (unknowingly having the creme gene), not very good, and those light palominos that were produced were culled solely on colour.... now can you see why the creme gene isn't at all common?
I agree Performance Horse is a subjective thing and some people use it in the same way they use warmblood for their crossbreds (there reasoning being hot plus cold equals warm), but it doesn't make them Warmbloods.
I believe Bernstein in Swedish WB is a Buckskin, who was originally thought to be Bay.

ernie
03-04-04, 03:30 AM
Now Cate ... whoa there. If the "cream gene" was around way back then, then cremello, perlino, buckskin, palomino, would have to have been perfectly normal colours for horses in those times, including the Arabian horses. Why on earth would it be suspected that the teaser had jumped the fence - given the circumstances?? That really does stretch the imagination :-)

Somebody's said that Darcy's Yellow Turk (Arabian) was palomino. Remembering that he was NOT one of the 3 taproot Arabian stallions, but allegedly the sire of Spanker, then he did sire some damn good horses - why oh why were none of them "cream"?? After all, if he really were a dilute, then 50% of his foals would be dilute. And from what I can gather, he sired a lot of foals. You can't tell me that a son/daughter of Darcy's Yellow Turk would have been killed at birth because it was cream??

Also don't forget a smoky black is still a dilute and will throw dilutes 50% of the time.

I promised myself I would not look at this page again. I am now going to ride a horse (bay). :-)

FALKENHORST
04-04-04, 08:53 AM
It is astonishing how people do not read the posts correctly and then write nonsense! Darcy's Yellow Turk was a BUCKSKIN and I wrote that and sent a picture too! Once again the cream gene is only inherited at 50% and since the TBs were bred for dark color, the outcome were RARE buckskin and mostly dark colors. Only the last years chestnuts became liked too and so the Palomino could pop up from time to time. Read about the Count Kinsky which's chestnut TB mare was bred to a TB stallion of dark color and she had a Palomino. At that time no blood tests were available and the foal was not allowed to papers. It is very difficult to breed for color with a chance of 50% and since the TBs were bred for racing as someone pointed out correctly, the British did not put buckskin and palomino together as the dark colors were liked, so no cremello or perlino or smoky cream did occur. You need to know about genetics to understand. In France the TB stallion Sylfou was born in Palomino color and since that was not a desired color, he was sold to the Hungarian states stud at Somogysard and there started their Palomino and Buckskin colors amongst other colors.
The Czech Count Kinsky started his own studbook when his TB colt in Palomino color was denied to get papers from the JC club. At these times nobody knew about correct colors and inheritance and blood tests. Please keep that in mind. The Palomino color was influenced very rare in the Holsteiner breed through Marlon xx the dark bay TB which was in reality a dark buckskin since he sired Palominos from two chestnut matings but since chestnut is a VERY RARE color in Holstein there were only a handful and with the dark color they were bred back to, they were not identified. You need to keep and breed for them as the color gets lost if it is not there in the offspring.

I also want to mention the Herrenhaeuser Weissisabellen. These horses were bred in the early Hanoverian beginnings at the Kings stud Herrenhausen and they were bred for the King and they were cremellos. Weissisabellen is white isabelle and these had blue eyes and were cremello. Later they were not liked any more as other colors were more popular, yet there have a handful lines survived and Mascarpone was one of the last ones to say. The dam of the stallion California Chablis on my stallion page - look at The Past - is a DARK buckskin and you would not say he is one if you do not know from a close look and his dam was one of the last Hanoverians in Palomino color!

As for performance of Palominos. My approved stallions have gone through a very hard selection and then went to the 100 or now 70 stallion tests which are not just eating a pudding! I think it would be good to take a flight and look at the horses in question before coming to a judgement.

Laverne
05-04-04, 12:03 AM
I enjoy reading your posts Falkenhorst as your knowledge and obsession with the palomino is quite obvious. But as a lay person when it comes most things, I get a little confused when I read some of the info and your last post has left me behind a bit.

One thing I am gleaning from all the information provided, is that the early european stud books frowned upon any horse that wasn't a solid colour because the ancestry was questionable. So although we are told that buckskins and palomino's did legimately exist in both TB and WB lines, those in charge of the stud books wouldn't accept their parentage because they had doubts? Or are you saying that it was a form of discrimination in that they only wanted solid colours so the palomino's and buckskins were just rejected and pushed aside, hence stifling their their development?

As a lay person, and perhaps someone who is ignorant or stupid or whatever, I can only see this in simple terms. There can be no question that the Europeans are, and have been front runners for many years in the successful production of dressage performance horses. The results of major competitions testify to that fact. I just cannot accept that the incredible determination and resolve continually demonstrated by these breeders would be so petty as to allow the exclusion of a good horse, simply because it was not a solid colour. That just simply defies logic. And given the number of palomino and cremello WB stallions now available in Europe, how many of the successful European studs are using these very stallions to enhance the production of performance horses they are breeding?

As much as I would dearly love to jump on a plane and visit Europe to look at all the lovely stallions, I don't have the option of that luxury. However, physically visiting tallions and watching them work is not the proof of the pudding. It's the results of their progeny that says it all, and that is available at our fingertips via the world wide web.

FALKENHORST
05-04-04, 09:20 AM
Laverne, I will try to respond to each chapter of you:

you wrote:
I enjoy reading your posts Falkenhorst as your knowledge and obsession with the palomino is quite obvious. But as a lay person when it comes most things, I get a little confused when I read some of the info and your last post has left me behind a bit.

my answer:
My biggest problem is that my mother language is not the same as yours so sometimes I explain things and nobody speaking another language understands as I translate it too easy and forget some things because they are so clear to me. I am not obsessed with the Palomino color, but I am passionate about horse color genetics and I am researching the sources and the outcomes. I also write articles about that.

You wrote:
One thing I am gleaning from all the information provided, is that the early european stud books frowned upon any horse that wasn't a solid colour because the ancestry was questionable. So although we are told that buckskins and palomino's did legimately exist in both TB and WB lines, those in charge of the stud books wouldn't accept their parentage because they had doubts? Or are you saying that it was a form of discrimination in that they only wanted solid colours so the palomino's and buckskins were just rejected and pushed aside, hence stifling their their development?

My answer:
the cream gene existed right from the beginning when Achal-Tekke blood was influenced. Since the cream gene can "hide" or better can not be detected easily on dark bay or not at all on black, only the Palominos are obvious. At these early days nobody knew about genetics correctly and blood test did not exist. So if a Palomino "popped up" and they were sure about the mating, then it was registered as a light chestnut or golden chestnut. They were not put aside. But race horses were bred to race and not for color as someone correctly pointed out earlier and there was a favor for the darker colors, chestnut was not favored, just look up old race horse pictures and you will see that they were rare. There might have been a handful at the beginning but not breeding for color and breeding back the lighter colors to darker colors and not trying to hold on the cream gene, there were only a few gene inheritors that survived this. One being in Germany (Marlon xx), one in Czech, one in France and two in the USA apparently. This is sure knowledge by now. The TB stallion in Czech was a dark horse bred to a chestnut TB mare and the outcome was a Palomino colt which was denied acceptance as the Czech stud book did not believe in the correct mating, so the Count Kinsky started his own studbook, known today as the Equus Kinsky. The one in Germany influenced the Holsteiner breed and they try to take out the chestnuts and also breed only for dark colors but several years ago a chestnut mare was bred to Marlon xx and the outcome were Palomino foals each time. So it is sure the dark Marlon xx was a dark buckskin and several dark Holsteiners have a golden sheen but only if bred to a chestnut and giving the cream gene with them you would find out if they are buckskin or not or smoky black or not. The one in France was Sylfou xx a true Palomino, registered as chestnut and he was sold to Hungary and there started the Hungarian Palomino and buckskin line in their Hungarian Warmblood and Kisber Felver breed. Several years ago a cremello was born in France and brought 18000 German Marks as the French TB auction. Sire and dam were "dark bays" but the apparently carried the creme gene and the double dose made a cremello foal. They said it is a mutation as nobody knew about genetics and the outlook of this gene.
So NO they were not culled just not bred for and so the gene was mostly lost in dark colors or lost at all. The two lines in the USA is Glitter Please and Milkie. I have one of each in my barn. These horses were always accepted but not bred for and wrongly named as light chestnuts and golden bays or light bays or yellow bays (like Bernstein in Sweden) and so it is now difficult to find back the way to the roots. It is the same with the Trakehner Pintos, they were not bred any longer in Germany, the gene was not conserved and there were no more. Then it was fashion and people went to Russia and Poland to find some of the last true Trakehner Pintos there and re-started the Pinto Trakehners but the Trakehner Verband denied them acceptance into the Verband until 1996 saying that they did never exist but a friend of mine did proof it to all and then they were pressured to do so. You can read that at his website if you want http://www.deschenhof.de/engltrak.htm

you wrote:
As a lay person, and perhaps someone who is ignorant or stupid or whatever, I can only see this in simple terms. There can be no question that the Europeans are, and have been front runners for many years in the successful production of dressage performance horses. The results of major competitions testify to that fact. I just cannot accept that the incredible determination and resolve continually demonstrated by these breeders would be so petty as to allow the exclusion of a good horse, simply because it was not a solid colour. That just simply defies logic. And given the number of palomino and cremello WB stallions now available in Europe, how many of the successful European studs are using these very stallions to enhance the production of performance horses they are breeding?

my answer:
Well you are mistaken here. The Holsteiners and the Hanoverians did set up a new studbook rule several years ago, to not allow the Pinto and Palomino color anymore. And to show you how unclear about genetics they are: they would register and fully brand any dark buckskin as they do not know that this is the same gene. Our Associations here know about good horses and breeding them but they do not know much about genetics and are totally ignorant on that, so no Pinto and Palomino color in the Holsteiner and Hanoverian breed anymore. They have plenty of Sabino Pintos in their Associations but do not know that they are Pintos... go figure! A friend of mine had a Holsteiner main mare book mare that was a Palomino and she is the dam of my mare Maigold.
To go to your saying that there are a number of Palomino and Cremello stallions in Europe and I guess you mean Warmblood/Reitpferd papered and registered and APPROVED for WARMBLOOD breeding, then NO there are very few and they are only in my barn except one that I sold to Ireland. Mascarpone was the only approved Cremello stallion in the world and he died Christmas 2001. The first of his sons will be presented this summer for approval. I am quite sure that he will get approval as I consider him even better than his sire. The only German Warmblood Palomino stallions also approved in Europe are Morgengold I (sold to Ireland) Zweibruecker/Rheinland-Pfalz-Saar, Morgengold II also Zweibruecker/Rheinland-Pfalz-Saar, Inspiration GF an Oldenburg, Win the Gold and Dream of Gold both could have been branded and registered Oldenburg but their breeder decided for ZfDP but the foals of Win the Gold get branded Oldenburg too and when Dream of Gold has finished his stallion test successfully his foals will also get branded by the other Verbands. Inspiration and Dream of Gold have first to do their testing before they are allowed to breed. Win the Gold has his first foal crop come this year and Morgengold's oldest offspring in my barn is 4 years old this year and a mare that will be used as broodmare. Since all Morgengold foals have been premium awarded that is already an achievement. Morgengold I in Ireland was a great showjumper and he produced very successful offspring there. And that's it for now. So we are still at the very beginning I would say.

you wrote:
As much as I would dearly love to jump on a plane and visit Europe to look at all the lovely stallions, I don't have the option of that luxury. However, physically visiting tallions and watching them work is not the proof of the pudding. It's the results of their progeny that says it all, and that is available at our fingertips via the world wide web.

my answer:
I agree with the proof is in the pudding totally. But so far only Morgengold and Mascarpone have offspring and they are said to be wonderful by the Verbands and by those that own them.
BTW I have nice videos of my stallions available to be sent via e-mail if you would like to see them at their beginning of training or under saddle, at the stallion approval or at the stallion testing.

Bats_79
06-04-04, 03:40 PM
Well, having been to the Australian Dressage Championships on Sunday and witnessed some very "ordinary" behaviour from some very "flash" stallions I would be prepared to say that anyone who picks COLOUR or MOVEMENT over temperament and trainability is asking for and expensive and disappointing future.

When the horse is a handful for an extremely experienced professional to ride why you breed your "slightly temperamental" thoroughbred mare to it just because it has "huge movement and beautiful colour" defies me.

The simple thing is that the horses with "ordinary" movement but great temperaments and trainability end up doing just as well as those with "showy" movement. Never let us forget Australia's quality dressage representative and totally discriminated against breeding stallion, Crown Law. If he had been studbook TB and a couple of inches taller I think the European studbooks would have snapped him up. Now I do not think that he has a male representative breeding. NZ's greatest eventing representative Kiwi, was out of a stationbred mare and I am fairly sure that Andrew Hoy's first Olympic ride, Davey, was an Australian Stock Horse.

It is only in the past few years, through lack of riding horse qualities, that the Thoroughbred has stopped being the equal to the warmblood in showjumping and we are now seeing the emergence of the Iberian horse as a competition dressage horse. The "Isabella" or champaign dilution has long been a desired colour for the Lusitano.

If Falkenhorst finds a niche breeding regular GOOD horses with nice temperaments and good conformation then that is excellent. Please remember that Performance Testing in Europe can be political to the point of corruption and as we know it is only 40 - 50 years old. Sandro, the grandsire of the dressage breeding sensation Sandro Hit, was refused entry to the Holsteiner Classification (due to his dam's dam having Hanovarian blood) and went to Sweden (I think) were he succesfully performed as a showjumper before coming back to Belgium.

I find myself becoming annoyed that people seem to be forgetting that the most important thing about a riding horse is how much pleasure you get out of riding it!

Laverne
07-04-04, 01:23 AM
I personally think quoting from someone's post as a form of replying to them is a little rude, but as this topic has digressed on many tangents, I'm doing it here just so my thoughts don't get lost again!

>Well, having been to the Australian Dressage Championships
>on Sunday and witnessed some very "ordinary" behaviour from
>some very "flash" stallions I would be prepared to say that
>anyone who picks COLOUR or MOVEMENT over temperament and
>trainability is asking for and expensive and disappointing
>future.

This observation is a bit of two pronged sword. Again, it's been a hard topic to try and keep objective, because once horses or their riders are identified, it's just not possible to comment fairly and objectively, and it can be very hurtful to those involved. To be able to really handle and perform well on a (dressage) stallion, requires far more knowledge and understanding than with a gelding. Considering that such stallions are kept entire because their owners believe they are worthy of siring future stock, places further pressure on the riders as they are always advertising whenever the horse is seen by other people. Perhaps the "ordinary behaviour" should be appointed to lack of experience, knowledge or sympathy on the rider or handler's part, rather than a temperament fault of the stallion himself? And yes, I know there are a number of people who have been around horses for years and years, but you can drive a car for 30 years and still be a crappy driver, so that analogy means nothing to me.
>
>When the horse is a handful for an extremely experienced
>professional to ride why you breed your "slightly
>temperamental" thoroughbred mare to it just because it has
>"huge movement and beautiful colour" defies me.
>
Another interesting comment, and again this highlights another area where perhaps most of us are blissfully ignorant. The more we start delving into the breeding side of horses, the more I realise we just don't know. I was told by a very, very experienced friend how difficult it is to really look at the mare you plan to use and continually assess and re-assess the stallions available in order to produce a sound, well tempered, trainable foal. I am just so amazed how flippant many mare owners are and how easily they are swayed by two things when choosing a stallion - the "look" of the stallion and the cost of service fee.

>NZ's greatest eventing representative Kiwi, was out of a
>stationbred mare and I am fairly sure that Andrew Hoy's
>first Olympic ride, Davey, was an Australian Stock Horse.

I don't think there's too much dispute in that comment, but I'm mainly directing my thoughts in relation to dressage performance horses.

>If Falkenhorst finds a niche breeding regular GOOD horses
>with nice temperaments and good conformation then that is
>excellent.

Totally agree, and I hope nothing in any of my comments has indicated otherwise. I think the scrutiny there presented itself when the topic digressed to 'high level dressage performance horses' which again occurs when horses and/or their owners are identified and then any comments become personal, which I had hoped to avoid.

FALKENHORST
07-04-04, 11:24 AM
Sorry Laverne, I didn't mean to be rude. I just found it easier to quote you and then write my reply as it is difficult to get forward and backward and I would have lost something on the road... Sorry if I offended you by quoting you.

MandyE
07-04-04, 01:31 PM
Hi All, back again after a busy weekend at the Nationals! It's taken me two days to recover, lol, so I haven't been near the computer.

Just a couple of things I noted in your post from the other day Ernie. I had to go back much earlier in the thread to check, and I'm sorry for quoting, but I want to make sure I don't miss anything! Not to be rude at all, so here goes:

You said: "Somebody's said that Darcy's Yellow Turk (Arabian) was palomino. Remembering that he was NOT one of the 3 taproot Arabian stallions, but allegedly the sire of Spanker, then he did sire some damn good horses - why oh why were none of them "cream"?? After all, if he really were a dilute, then 50% of his foals would be dilute. And from what I can gather, he sired a lot of foals. You can't tell me that a son/daughter of Darcy's Yellow Turk would have been killed at birth because it was cream??


The Yellow Turk was buckskin, not palomino (Whistlejacket was palomino). According to a couple of websites I found through Falkenhorst's link, he is behind Herod, Matchem and Eclipse, all being founding sires. Eclipse has 6 lines to Darcy's Yellow Turk, and I think from memory the other two have at least 3 each. As Falkenhorst has stated previously, back in those days the breeders used very few chestnut horses, preferring the darker colours, which can make the dilute gene much harder to recognise as many buckskins can look like bright bay, or even black/brown, sometimes even liver chestnut. And the dilute of true black, which is known as smokey black in the US and Europe and black buckskin here, is very, VERY hard to recognise as a dilute unless you know the background of the parents, or the horse itself has produced a dilute foal.

As for 50% of his foals being dilute, that’s not quite right. If he was bred to bay, black or brown mares, you could get either a buckskin, bay, brown, or chestnut foal. If he’d been bred to a chestnut mare, then you would expect either a palomino, chestnut, bay or buckskin foal. The 50% chance of a dilute is per mating, not over the total number of foals produced.

“Also don't forget a smoky black is still a dilute and will throw dilutes 50% of the time.” Again, each mating has a chance of 50% of producing a dilute, but that doesn’t mean every second mating will actually result in a dilute foal. Some dilute stallions will produce dilute with the majority of their mares, even though each mating has the 50% chance.

And re your comment about going to ride your horse, (bay), what a great idea! I had a great ride on my young warmblood filly today and yesterday and completely restored my sanity and peace of mind! And she’s chestnut! ;-)

Cheers!

Mandy

MandyE
07-04-04, 03:32 PM
Oh, just one more thing! Darcy's Yellow Turk, wasn't an arabian, but an akhel tehke (sp?) - also known as 'Turks' - which were another 'blood' breed used to influence the start of the TB breed.

Going to bed now..

Cheers


Mandy

Laverne
07-04-04, 03:43 PM
Blimey, this is why I hate trying to discuss things via the internet. Flakenhorst, my comments about quoting back at people weren't directed at you, so thank you for the apology, but it wasn't necessary. There have been discussions on this forum in the past about quoting back at posters, and although I have agreed with others that it can come across as quite rude, sometimes you have to do it in order to keep your thoughts on track. Nothing more was intended by me when I made that comment, so please don't read anything into it.

DD
07-04-04, 09:57 PM
It still doesn't add up to me. If one of the important founding sires of the TB was a dilute, then there should be alot more dilutes out there in the TB world. An average of 50% of the offspring will be dilute in color whether they be palomino, buckskin or smokey black they are still dilute and capable of producing dilute offspring. And with the numer of times that line breeding/in breeding has been used in the TB there would be even more dilutes and double dilutes (perlino and cremello).

ernie
08-04-04, 01:48 AM
I agree, DD. It doesn't add up. But I guess if you were desperate to "prove" that palominos and bucksins were part of the early Thoroughbred, then you can write books about it. Mandy, your friend Gwen at Falkenhorst has already corrected me re Darcy's colour. And I don't care about the colour, only the fact that he was a dilute (if he was a dilute). I thought I made that clear. Now go back and read a few of the posts and get some logical thoughts into your head. Somebody said that the dilute horses were killed at birth and that's why there are not so many around now. What if Spanker (dam of Eclipse and allegedly a daughter of Darcy's Yellow Turk) had been dilute? Or more to the point, what if Spanker's full sibling had been a dilute?? Would they have killed that foal? Would the colour be unpopular? I hardly think so - there'd be millions of them. Unless of course they were just plain no good.

I'm well aware that far more studious people than I have studied the lines of the Throughbred right back through time but who do you believe? Mandy and Falkenhorst or Tesio (who probably didn't give a hoot about their colour anyway)?

Logical thinking says that the colours would still exist today and certainly wouldn't be frowned on.

The lovely Poetin (young dressage mare, Mandy - brown I think) has been sold to new owners in Holland for 2.4 million euros and I believe that they are going to try embryo transfer breeding with her. Imagine the uproar if they used a palomino stallion!! LOL.

Anyway - you guys breed your palomino warmbloods but let's not hear any "he was put down because of his colour" complaints because you know what you're getting into.

FALKENHORST
08-04-04, 07:35 AM
Well, I just wait until my Brentano II, Weltmeyer, Londonderry, Wolkentanz, White Star, Worldly and Sir Donnerhall foals are born out of Oldenburg main mare book Palomino and Cremello WARMBLOOD mares.

Centaur
08-04-04, 11:11 AM
yeah..so there ernie!! :P ner ner to you!!

ernie
08-04-04, 01:43 PM
ROFL Centaur!!! :-)

Falkenhorst, I hope you have lovely foals, no matter the colour, and that you find loving and knowledgeable homes for them. Because they're horses after all and they all need caring and intelligent owners. :-)

MandyE
08-04-04, 02:14 PM
:-) :-) :D :D :D :D :7 :7

And why don't we leave that as the last word?!!

'Cos I have the feeling here, that we're just going to have to agree to disagree!

Cheers all, it's been a most stimulating discussion and I think will go down in Cyberhorse history?

Mandy


;-)

bc
09-04-04, 02:44 AM
Hi Falkenhorst,

Can you tell me if you are planning to freeze or chill semen from your Oldenburg stallion 'Inspiration GF'?.

Regards,
bc

FALKENHORST
09-04-04, 07:54 AM
bc, Inspiration is right now in training with the Thuringian Vice Master in dressage and is prepared for his stallion test which he will enter by end of June. When the stallion test is achieved, he is allowed to have frozen semen and we will have him frozen by the end of this year or next year. The freezing is a very expensive thing to do as they have to go into a semen center and stay there into quarantine for 30 days before you can start, having all tests done and after all that has been done they start to freeze. At the end of this season I will first have Win the Gold's semen frozen as he has the most demands all over the world.

hazyponds
20-05-05, 12:23 AM
Hi, we are breeding palomino warmbloods at our stud... we had our first pally wb colt last season.. Hazy Ponds Armagedon who is heading across to WA for a dressage career. We have two colored wb foals due this season.. one out of a lovely hanoverian trakener mare, and the other out of a grand kav mare...both by our cremello ash stallion..
We recently purchased a big chestnut Jive Magic colt to further extend our wb colored breeding program, and plan to put him over predominently cremello ash mares, plus breed him to our existing wb/tbred stock to build up our wb brood mares.

You can view pedigree and pictures of our horses at wwww.hazyponds.com
kind regards

cathy and jorge moises

pm
04-06-05, 10:42 AM
The horse in question is referred to as a foundation sire - he must be used over WB mares, not over TBs for progeny to be registered.
this is done in many WB Verbands, in Celle the "special stallions" were paraded when i was there and they were both TB and Anglos. Whats the big deal. The horse passed his colt selection fair and square. Whats the diff between putting a WB stallion over a TB mare, or a TB stallion over a WB mare??

pm
04-06-05, 10:49 AM
"The next twist to WID registration, is that if you have at least 3 registered generations of W/B, T/B, Anglo or Arabian, and you have a pass mark of 60%, the mare can then be upgraded to the Foundation Mare B group, 70% and you're into the A group. This allows breeding rights registration, if the foal is by an approved AWHA stallion."

This is not a twist, it has been the same for years and years. Warmblood Foundation mares cant be such until classification - thus they get a WID certificate as a birth certificate until such time as they are classified. Their progeny can go into the Stud book if by an AWHA Lic or App stallion but only after classification - like all of them.

"I may be interpreting the AWHA regulations incorrectly but this sounds like the equivalent to letting anything into the registery and having a breed right to progeny registration."

How so??? They must still be of WB, WB/TB, WB/Anglo breeding to be classified as WFMs, still have to get height requirement, still have to have service cert, and foal sighting, and cant be any old WB never heard of.

Atom
07-06-05, 09:35 AM
Hi, we are from Germany and we have found this intersting thread. We are breeder from palomino warmbloods in the german warmblood associations. Our palomino warmblood stallion is approvaed and licensed for the mostly german warmblood associations and his approved son was exported to the US.He is a rare Equus Kinsky Warmblood from the Czech Republic and had Hannoverians, Hungarian Halfbreeds and TB´s in his bloodlines. He is trained at a Grand Prix level in dressage and jumping at 1,20m. So far he has the best stallion test result from ALL warmbloods in palomino color in Germany. If you are interested in reading about the breed you can look here: http://www.kinsky.de/Rasseportrait/Fotos/Gestut/Gestut_Eng/gestut_eng.html
We have some very nice warmbloods in cremello/palomino and buckskin color for good prices for sale. If you are interested, please let me know.



Thanks Mandy

MandyE
07-06-05, 03:19 PM
Hey, who revived this!

Hello Cathy! Had a look at your website, you have some good stock there. Good luck with your Jive colt, if he's anything like our beautiful Jazz filly, I'm sure you will be thrilled with him.

Well, it's been over a year since this thread first commenced, and I can happily report that Aragorn, our Aladdin (imp Alabaster x Glorieux) colt is getting better every day. We are so, so pleased with his amazing temperament, and his very correct conformation and lovely movement. He will be 2yo this coming spring, and we are looking forward to putting him over our mares this year.

I have a good selection of mares waiting for him, 2 x TB's, a warmblood, a part-arabian and a stockhorse mare, all selected for quality and temperament, so hopefully we will get a good idea of the stock he is going to put on the ground from that cross section. At this stage I am still not sure if we will offer him to outside mares this season, but it is a possibility.

Our part-arabian mare had the most divine filly by Jaybee Excellent, she is deep red chestnut with four white stockings and a big white blaze, with the most amazing presence. I would have loved her to be a pally, however she is so special she is staying anyway :D

My pally stockhorse mare, who is the dam of Aragorn, is now in foal to Alabaster by frozen, so I am hoping like mad for a pally filly! She's not due till early December so it's a long wait, lol!

It's a long road, but things are ticking along nicely, so I'm looking forward to the future and to some very special babies to come.

Cheers all

Mandy

Aida
09-09-05, 11:21 AM
I just did a search on google for the Belcam palomino colt and returned some good results.

Apparently, he is doing quite well on the showjump circuit in germany with a young rider. The girl looks to be about 15 or so.

It says something for a horse that was bred firstly for 'performance'and the colour was secondary.
Centaur and Ernie have a point - until someone breeds a palomino that cleans up in dressage etc lol. This topic has been a great read.

I am impressed that an Australian bred horse could do quite well in very good competition OS. From what the search revealed, and alot is in german, the horse is consistently performing and placing within the top 10-15 or higher.

I wonder if the horse is gelded now?
I would be impressed with a horse that had balls, and a career, and was mainly ridden by a teenager.
It seems that the temperament of the horse must be very good.
Just type in Belcam Altimate and see what pops up.

Good old Souvenier - he just keeps turning up in the most unexpected places through his progeny!

Cheers.

sharyn
09-09-05, 12:51 PM
I just had a look on the waterview park site, and they are now offering the most magnificent looking palomino stallion by the hanoverian, dimaggio. www.waterviewpark.alphalink.com.au

twinpines
10-09-05, 01:21 PM
Ah well each to his own!

What ever gets you out of bed in the morning is fine by me...
Must admit I didn't know there were Tb palaminos out there. Learn something new each day!

He, He..Had a thought though....do you reckon there's money in breeding striped horses? I mean, why not...you could then colour co-ordinate your horse to your attire....Do you reckon people would go for it???

Maybe start with buckskins...don't they sometimes have striping on their legs etc? Zebras would be to feral to cross I think...Actually, here's a thought...how about striped palamino horses....that should sell...Hmmmm off to ponder that thought...

MandyE
17-09-05, 03:55 PM
Drat, can't get the link to work!

Dutch
17-09-05, 11:59 PM
Try this one Mandy
http://waterviewpark.alphalink.com.au/

hoofpick
21-09-05, 01:03 PM
STRIPING??? then you would be talking about DUNS!

teetee
25-01-14, 09:40 PM
Just bringing this 10 year old thread up on a whim as I'm bored and it made me lol :D

The more things change the more they stay the same :)

Centaur
16-08-14, 09:27 AM
How so teetee?

mindari
20-08-14, 12:07 AM
Ah well each to his own!

What ever gets you out of bed in the morning is fine by me...
Must admit I didn't know there were Tb palaminos out there. Learn something new each day!

He, He..Had a thought though....do you reckon there's money in breeding striped horses? I mean, why not...you could then colour co-ordinate your horse to your attire....Do you reckon people would go for it???

Maybe start with buckskins...don't they sometimes have striping on their legs etc? Zebras would be to feral to cross I think...Actually, here's a thought...how about striped palamino horses....that should sell...Hmmmm off to ponder that thought...

yes but you can breed them striped the south african cattle breeders in the tetze fly zones crossed zebras with horses and used the resulting zeebroids as their stockhorses. pretty spectacular too. and apparently were quite good for the job.

http://www.pinterest.com/explore/zebroid/

check out the range of colours and contrasts you can get. love the one the girl is crouching on its back.

how about this? obviously a single hetrozygous dilute, but which one. palomino? or champagne I suspect

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/52/90/42/529042e1ef51dd02af8173d5244ae736.jpgand this

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/f8/e5/21/f8e5217aea546ce847c1e990eac87168.jpg

mindari
20-08-14, 12:18 AM
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/14/b7/cc/14b7cc85c4d86fa9abc6147f2cdceaf8.jpghttp://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/dd/1f/99/dd1f99f0f526ec8b396056f1f0ef01f4.jpghttp://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/27/6f/57/276f5711dd606c1fa725a454d0d42f89.jpghttp://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/17/c6/c9/17c6c95e93e2534778cce607c930b0c0.jpg

teetee
17-09-14, 08:43 PM
How so teetee?

Sorry missed this thread, just interesting that most of the same comments can be found in threads on the topic now as were found 10 years ago :)

midnightly
17-09-14, 09:24 PM
LOL ... and everybody had fabulously bred warmblood chestnut mares in foal to dilutes .... so where are these babies now? They should be here, on the ground, 9 or 10 years old. Competing at PsG or higher ...

Breeding halfway decent foals is hard enough so why on earth try to add colour (or lack of it really) to the problem.

teetee
17-09-14, 09:50 PM
Lol Mid I didn't have any WB mares 10 years ago sadly so I can't be blamed for those ones :D I do believe that Byalee Briar has started at advanced though so not too far off, I think he's a 2004 model so that would put him at 10 yo this year.

As for mine, well I would say I probably could be blamed for my lot not reaching their potential, my 3 yo (who is now technically 4 as I was surprised to discover the other day) isn't even broken in yet and probably won't be for some time yet because a) I'm a bit pov at the moment and b) he's currently going through yet another awkward growth phase lol!

My rising 7 yo I'm sure would be far more advanced in his training if he didn't have a half crippled unco rider, certainly my coach who is not into coloured WBs at all thinks he's lovely and will take me as far as I want to go :)

In my very humble and lowly opinion I would hazard a guess that there are many lovely Warmbloods out there, coloured or otherwise, that are not reaching their potential for various reasons. Since the coloureds are in the minority as it is then I would be hesitant to conclude that it's colour alone preventing them from getting to the higher levels, the rider usually has something to do with it. ;)

midnightly
17-09-14, 10:05 PM
That goes without saying, teetee. And no, of course I wasn't looking at you when I said what I did - you weren't around then. :)

But if the "coloured" foals from some of the self-professed "professional breeders" had been any good then some decent riders would have bought them. But they're nowhere to be seen. Briar had nothing to do with these foals 10 years ago either.

Because of their mixed breeding, IMHO it's harder to breed a good warmblood than it is to breed a purebred anything. Some of the "coloured" blood in those horses 10 years back was stock horse, quarter horse, and I've been told even Welsh pony. Nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with quarter horses etc., but good expressive movers they're not (nor is it what they have been bred for).

teetee
17-09-14, 10:42 PM
Yes back then there weren't a lot of options around, even nowadays some people are still breeding QH to TB to get an all rounder type, sometimes with colour, IMO the modern QH is far less compatible with the TB than it used to be so the cross doesn't work as well as it has in the past in terms of ending up with a good all purpose type. Anyway I digress.

Ultimately I can only speak for myself, I can't speak for the motivations of other people or breeders, for me I wanted a horse that was the appropriate breed for what I wanted to do, as well bred as I could get but since I'm not going to the Olympics anytime soon it doesn't have to be a world beater so I can go for other things I like too. One of those things was colour. If I can get everything I want and need why shouldn't I?



What an interesting thread and one, as a coloured warmblood breeder, obviously close to my heart.

I think the problem in Australia is that we are so much in our infancy as far
as breeding potentially successful coloured "performance" horses go, given that the concept is still a relatively new one. Most people (understandably) still think of palominos as dubiously bred, under 15hh kid's ponies not tall elegant and sensationally moving performers!

I think too that breeders have to be realistic about what and to whom they are breeding. I have no doubt our stallion's progeny could go on to lofty heights in both dressage and jumping but as someone has already said, there are few riders in Australia with the ability to take them there. It is the age old problem for breeders - how to get your progeny "out there" and climbing the ranks to get the stud name known and recognised.

It is true that all coloured warmbloods in Australia at present have inherited their "colour" from other breeds but the handful of us who are breeding coloured warmbloods are endeavouring to slowly improve this situation. Here at Karizmah, rather than just breeding to sell, we are retaining our very best palomino fillies by our stallion to one day breed them on to outstanding solid coloured warmblood stallions. Slowly but surely we aim to increase the percentage of warmblood "blood" in our palominos and who knows, one day the die-hard Warmblood purists might begin to take us seriously. *g*

Jenny
Karizmah Palominos
Palomino Warmbloods & Sport Horses
http://www.karizmah.com

I really like this post from way back when, and Karizmah has been working hard to achieve that, she has kept her quality mares and bred them to quality stallions, she bred a lovely pally Weltmeyer who has just moved to QLD and is competing here with his amateur rider. I tried to buy a lovely pally gelding by Belissimo M from her last year but he was already spoken for. She currently has a beautiful pally mare by the same sire just making her debut in the dressage arena and doing very well from what I can tell. So maybe there will be many more lovely coloured WBs around in the next ten years :)

midnightly
17-09-14, 10:51 PM
They're all lovely colours, teetee. All of 'em. :)

annelise
17-09-14, 11:08 PM
WB Palomino pas de deux in the opening session of the Brisbane Festival of Dressage this Saturday. One is competing Advanced, the other is a successful YH.

teetee
17-09-14, 11:08 PM
I know, I'd have one in every colour if I could :D

Interestingly I've often been drawn to the lighter colours more so than the darker ones, my dogs too have all been "dilutes", I personally think it's because it's easier to see the definition in their faces and eyes, I have a little bit of face blindness so that could be part of the reason.

teetee
17-09-14, 11:09 PM
WB Palomino pas de deux in the opening session of the Brisbane Festival of Dressage this Saturday. One is competing Advanced, the other is a successful YH.

You just HAD to say that after I had become resigned to the fact that I was too poor to go this year :(

annelise
17-09-14, 11:19 PM
:D never got around to going before, but this year I'm driver and ground crew to the YH so get free tickets :) Looking forward to the trade stands, might have to leave the wallet locked in the cruiser though :)

teetee
17-09-14, 11:29 PM
:D never got around to going before, but this year I'm driver and ground crew to the YH so get free tickets :) Looking forward to the trade stands, might have to leave the wallet locked in the cruiser though :)

Lol I usually never miss it but this year I'm soooo broke, and yes the trade stands are always awesome as is the stallion parade :D

annelise
17-09-14, 11:45 PM
Last week I thought I had solved the money woes. I saw on tv that an old 1600's coin had been dug up in a field in England and flogged off at Christies for a million plus. My heart was flipping around because some years ago After my mum died I found a 1752 centime in my grandmothers costume jewelry box. I planned the cottage extensions, stable block, round yard, shelters, concrete driveway, and and and.......Got onto google to see what the going value might be only to find that some years ago Readers Digest had released a flood of replicas of this particular coin. Checked the identifying photos and sure enough, my coin was worth $2. Bugger!

teetee
18-09-14, 12:00 AM
Oh that does suck! :D I really wish there was a get rich quick scheme that actually worked lol!

Imagine how many coloured WBs I'd have then! ;)

annelise
18-09-14, 12:13 AM
If you don't already know of him, google Quasigold. Eventing son of Quaterback.Ticks a few boxes for me :)

manu
18-09-14, 07:46 AM
I am pretty happy with my coloured warmblood. Lol.

but I would have bought her even if she was solid brown.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m260/scoobydog/0637e05226eacb386840926860fbc70b.jpg

teetee
18-09-14, 09:37 AM
If you don't already know of him, google Quasigold. Eventing son of Quaterback.Ticks a few boxes for me :)

Oooh he's very nice, he'd get marked down at pally shows with all that smut but I think I could live with it :D


I am pretty happy with my coloured warmblood. Lol.

but I would have bought her even if she was solid brown.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m260/scoobydog/0637e05226eacb386840926860fbc70b.jpg

Your girl is gorgeous Manu, I feel the same, there are a lot of lovely warmbloods around that aren't any less nice because they are coloured :)

annelise
21-09-14, 12:41 PM
Yes but pretty smut:) did you see his very recent videos from the Eventing BuCha? Very nice. He also has his own FB page Quasi Gold. The breeder is using some top lines producing dilutes. Licensing and Bundeschampionate so not run of the mill breeding.

teetee
21-09-14, 06:02 PM
Yes I liked his page, lots to like about him that's for sure :D How did the pallies go at the dressage festival yesterday? Would have loved to go but reality dictated I should stay home.

annelise
22-09-14, 03:07 PM
They were the last pair in the opening segment apparently because they are competitive dressage horses. It was a sort of display of breeds, I think we were there just to glitz it up with colour as both are WB's. They were very well behaved and did their two minute stint quite creditably:) The sidesaddle palomino also was a WB/Arab by the full brother of Naomi's boy by Leuwin. The girls were very happy with their golden children.

teetee
22-09-14, 08:37 PM
Oh gorgeous yes I think I saw pics of Sue Ellen's boy on FB he's a lovely horse and a Karizmah horse, the breeder I quoted a while back.

annelise
23-09-14, 01:36 PM
Teetee, if you get onto the Flash It Photography website you will find lots from the FOD. The golden kids are in the Opening gallery, only a couple. One of Indie isn't terribly flattering but the others are nice :)

teetee
23-09-14, 06:03 PM
Lovely pics annelise :D

My golden girl keeps trying to convince me she is a jumping horse instead of a dressage pony :eek:
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd72/teekay_fotos/2014/DSC00651.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd72/teekay_fotos/2014/DSC00689.jpg

annelise
23-09-14, 11:47 PM
Nothing wrong with dual lines :D

teetee
24-09-14, 10:19 AM
Lol true! She's so funny most horses would just go to one side of the pole but nope up she goes! Such a funny girl, absolute pleasure to own my lot they have such lovely natures :)

annelise
24-09-14, 10:26 PM
:) our girl is a x-country type, up retaining walls etc :) and a pocket pony.

teetee
25-09-14, 06:36 PM
Love the pocket ponies, they are so much fun! :)