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Henrys_hill
01-06-04, 10:05 AM
Hi I know this is going to sound stupid so dont yell at me.. but i have a colt, who is stallion material, but the breeder wont register him as a colt, only a gelding. (she doesnt want anyone but her to have his lines for breeding) Anyway, if he did well in open shows and i ended up breeding him with my own mares, if they were registered, could the foals be registered as part breds?

turtle
01-06-04, 01:03 PM
I doubt that any registry except perhaps a colour registry would accept foals for registration by an unregistered stallion no matter how good he was.

Mooks
02-06-04, 02:34 AM
I'm not sure if a breeder can hold back registration. I do know that certain dogs can be registered on a limited registry which means, if they are bred, their pups cannot be registered with the breed society. Whether this applies to horses as well, I wouldn't know. I think your best option is to approach the breed society and speak to them and get it from the people in the know.

If you think your boy is good enough, then take the risk, keep him entire and use/ sell his services, but remember the chances that his offspring can be registered are possibly zip and people may stray away from as the progeny cannot be registered. It will also be hard getting him out to the shows, and he must solely rely on his performance in his chosen disciplines as he will not be able to rely on breed performances. In saying that there are quite a few champions across the different equestrian pursuits that are the result of an unregistered stallion and or mare.

Good luck with your boy.

Jan Heine
02-06-04, 11:52 AM
Henrys_hill you don't sound stupid at all - just a couple of things here. Did you breed the colt? If so did you get a service certificate? If the answers to this are yes then you cannot be stopped from registering the colt with the relevant breed society.

If you didn't breed the colt but bought him, then the breeder sold him entire and cannot force you to geld unless this was part of written agreement to which you agreed and I would presume that if you bought him he from a legitimate breeder then he would have pedigree papers regardless of his breeding.

You talk about part bred but don't say what type of partbred - remember that there is nothing wrong with part breds - an Irish Sport Horse, for example is a "part bred" and they are highly sought after as performance horses and are definitely registerable.

The other thing is that I think people in Australia are just a tad hung up about registering with various societies - the important thing is that the horse has recognised breeding on both sides.

And don't forget that if you have a colt with recognised breeding on both sides then you can register with ISSA who will happily inspect the colt for movement, conformation etc. and give you a classification.

Hope that helps a bit.

Cheers,
Jan

Henrys_hill
02-06-04, 12:05 PM
hi Jan
thanks for that. hes a pure Aussie Pony, and i bought him from a slaughter market :( Theres nothing wrong with him at all. The only thing i can find hes a tiny bit turned out in the fron legs, but this can be fixed with correctional shoeing. There was no clause in the sale that if he was to be registered it was to be as a gelding, but noone in the stud book can help me. They all say the breeder has every right to only register him as a gelding. But i have found out his foals can be regd as part bredds, if they come from a regd mare :) So i might do that..
Whats the ISSA?

Jan Heine
02-06-04, 12:41 PM
Now that is sad that a well bred Aussie Pony colt ends up at the meat market - seriously hope that the breeder isn't the one who sent him there.

Without wanting to preach just remember that if he is turned out in the front legs then that is a conformation fault which can be highlighted when breeding him - correctional shoeing will only fix things cosmetically and will not alter the genetics. And also remember that Murphy's Law is a very strong one and "a little bit turned out" will more often than not breed a badly turned out foal.

ISSA is the International Sporthorse Society of Australia and they are not breed specific - now I am not sure if they accept pony breeds but worth asking them - they have a web site connected here at Cyberhorse - sorry I can't remember the exct address.

I am surprised the breeder can register your colt as a gelding when he is quite obviously entire - not sure how that can happen but as I said I know nothing about the Australian Pony Society.

Henrys_hill
02-06-04, 02:11 PM
It was a very sad day, as it was the breeder who not only sent him, but 10 other weanlings - 2yr old ponies. her excuse was no feed or time...THEN y breed them???
Thats ok, i just thought that most will straighten within time, its only when they stay turned out that its then classed as a conformation defect. Thanks for the help, will check out the website! :)

Jan Heine
02-06-04, 02:58 PM
Yep well I won't even touch on the topic of breeding more than you can viably afford to feed - and to then say you are not allowed to breed on with the colt - perhaps if that is what the breeder wanted they shouldhave gelded him before sending him for slaughter - grrrrrr makes me so very mad!

Anyway - back to the turn in the leg - yes most will correct themselves and that is all fine for a gelding - but when you are talking about breeding stock you have to be a lot more careful - if for example you were to put a stallion with a slight bend in the leg over a mare with a slight bend you run the risk of breeding something with a shocking bend if you see where I am coming from.

I believe, and it is my humble opinion only, that when breeding you want to start with conformationally correct mare and stallion because any slight defects can well be highlighted in their progeny.

I admit I am very picky - like for example I would have no issue buying a 6 yo plus gelding which is pidgeon toed but I wouldn't breed with a pidgeon toed mare or stallion. If the gelding is 6yo and sound then the cances are it will not have issues but I wouldn't want to be breeding this fault - hope that makes sense.

Good luck with your little fellow and good on you for saving him from the meat man!

Chezza
03-06-04, 06:25 AM
Well I must say that it is terrible that those horses ended up at the knackery.

But if the person could not afford to keep them and feed them, isn't that better than the owner keeping them and they are starved and neglected and become an RSPCA case???

There is another classificaion for your pony which I think would be through the ACE group for registering sport horse ponies. There were many advertisements in magazines for this. I think ACE when having their classification tour they also included the pony register.

The EFA also has a register for Pony dressage which you can check out on their site and there is also some sort of saddle pony register that ponies like your one can become classified and registered.

wazmons
03-06-04, 01:18 PM
Argh!!!! people like the breeder should be shot!! If there is no feed/money then reduce or stop breeding for a season. It's far better (and cheaper) to maintain a broodmare band and stallions for a season with a small number or no foals on the ground than to breed the usual numbers and then send them to the sales. Are these the idiots that then charge heaps for their youngstock?

Good luck for getting an APSB pony at the sales. Have you checked his breeding, he may have some Welsh in his pedigree (lots of APSB ponies have a welsh background). He may be eligible for part welsh registration. Provided he is over 11hh he would also be eligible for saddle pony registration. Classification for ASP includes a riden component as well as being assesed for conformation. If you could register with those two societies it gives you some classes to compete a stallion in. Some years ago I used to show an APSB stallion under saddle and had so much fun with him.

Henrys_hill
03-06-04, 04:16 PM
heh, im not too much knowlegdeable in the lines, but the sire goes back to lowlyn (sp?) silver chief. His dam side has 2 generations of aussie then goes to unknown. hes currently 6 months and is 10.3hh.
How do i find the ACE website and about saddle pony reg? I just hope hes registerable for something and then i can show him and he be a champion so i can throw it at the breeder

Amanda_H
04-06-04, 01:56 AM
Hi Henry's Hill,

Well firstly good on you for buying the little fella & giving him a good home.

However, with all due respect, I think the term "stallion" quality is largely subjective. It is a fact of life that many studs send their below average stock to the market often unbranded/unregistered. You have already stated that the pony is turned out in the front feet, it just may be that the breeder did not think he was stallion material.


I am picking that if he is that size & age you would have paid very little for him. Hence why alot of breeders do not geld such colts before sending them to the market, it costs more to geld them than what what they are sold for. Breeders are then usually more than happy to provide gelding papers for anyone that picks up these ponies, when they have them gelded.

The breeder does have a right to register a foal as a colt or gelding, they did not say they wouldn't register it, just not as a colt.

If you are looking for a colt that is stallion quality, there are plenty of studs that breed good Aussie ponies, why not visit them & say what you are looking for. As a breed, Aussie ponies are not overly expensive, you should be able to find a good quality colt from a reputable breeder that is affordable. The meat market in general is not the place to look for a future stallion, really if you want quality you have to be prepared to pay a reasonable price, not necessarily exorbitant, but reasonable. If you want to email me privately I can give you contacts for some helpful, reputable breeders of Aussie ponies.

Personally I wouldn't wast money trying to promote an unregistered stallion. I have nothing against partbreds at all, just about everything I breed is registered partbred something, welsh, APSB, arabian derivative, but my 3 stallions are registered & of known pedigree for many generations.

Cheers
Amanda

LisaL
11-06-04, 08:10 AM
I'd be inclined to geld him, then if the papers are available, show him. Spend a few years learning more about the breed and if you want to breed, buy some good mares. A good stud is based on excellent marelines, not stallions. If you start with a stallion what do you do with your youngstock? You sell. You start with mares, then young stock can be both retained and sold.

To get a Great Gelding, you geld a good colt. Unfortunately there are too many 'breeders' out there who devalue gelding (oohh it costs money and eats into my profit when in fact NO one makes a profit from horses when you add up maintenance, feeding, training and time). So geld him, it will only cost you around $150-$200 and you will not regret it at all.

squid hill
05-07-04, 11:42 AM
I would also geld him.
I am with the breeder here. I will be selling all colts bred by my colt as geldings unless offered enough money to keep them entire.
As a breeder if you buy a very expensive well bred colt/stallion to stand at stud with, you dont want to sell too many colts by him to local homes that may stand for half the price. If it is out of an outside mare, then I cant stop them from keeping it entire.
You may think now that the idea of having a stallion is a very romantic one, lots of people do, but belive me it is a lot of work, and responsibility.
He has conformation faults, and he is very small for his age, geld him, it will give him a better quality of life than being a locked up stallion that no body wants to use. If he was stallion material, he would not have been sent to the sale pen, the breeder would have kept him or sold him privately. Ill bet if you went to her place she still has all the good ones in her paddocks.
cheers

www.squidhill.com

Henrys_hill
09-07-04, 02:21 PM
You say he is small? According to the registry..aussie ponies are from 11h to 14hh, wich i think he will be a tad under 13. hes now 7 months and 11.1hh He has very long dainty legs, and big joints.
Also the breeder hasnt kept all her goodstock, she sent 3 champion bloodlined fillies with him to the sale.

April
20-07-04, 12:52 AM
Hi,
Some of the most super ponies are found in the most unusual places,
a good friend of mine found a lovely aussie pony in a breeders back
paddock.Unfortunatly he was also gelded .He now wins alot but was super stallion material.
Perhaps you need an independent assesment breeders can be a little funny about something they rejected or its been rejected for a very good reason.
A vet would be a good start,the super aussie ponies are few in number
so its quite a closed shop.
Good luck there will be alot of red tape

Henrys_hill
20-07-04, 04:06 PM
thanks for the encouragement april. its good to know that not everyone but me thinks that because he was bought for cheap and at a market then hes no good. :)

LisaL
21-07-04, 05:48 AM
We're not saying he's no good. He could well be a corker. But that doesn't mean that he's automatically stallion quality, and even if he were, what are you going to market the foals as? Stallions are a lot of work. Pony stallions in particular can be very difficult. 90% of horses that go through the yards end up as meat, if his breeder can only sell her stock through the yards, why do you think your luck is going to be any different?

Henrys_hill
21-07-04, 12:13 PM
the only reason the breeder cant sell her stock is because she doesnt bother to advertise them, and takes the easy way out in the market. And she only has the problem because they overbred there stock in the first place. The foals if he stays a colt(depending on saddle pony status) will be sold as allrounders, or if nice enough to be shown in open classes. Not only that, most times, if i bred, theres no way id breed more than 2 mares a year! that way i can spend time with the foals, show them or break them whatevers necessary. Im not doing it to pull in quick cash with stud fees or whatever, im letting the colt prove himself to see what quality he is, and then we will go from there. Ive been around enough stallions, pony and other breeds to know what im doing, and thats the only reason hes still entire. if hed been 4 or 5 i wouldnt have purchased him, as i wouldnt have known his handling background, whereas i can outline my colts attitude as he grows.
Fair enough he may still become a "prick" in wich case he will be gelded.

tread
10-10-04, 01:54 AM
I would just like to point out one thing........
There is no such think as a bad horse just bad owners.

Trish

esse
30-10-04, 10:41 AM
Hello!

I nearly fell off my chair when you mentioned Silver Chief!! Me too.I bought a pony by Silver Chief from a doggers yard!!!

After much research I discovered the stud Windorra was owned by Mrs Goldsworthy, now deceased. Her daughter, Noela lives in Longreach.

About 8 years ago 20 pregnent brood mare were stolen while she was being treated for cancer by a so called family friend. My little fella was very badly misused and I've spent a couple of years undong bad management. Still this line is exceptionally gentle and wonderfully put together. I bought him for harness work, that swishy tail, and high head carriage- just perfect for an 1830's sports model;)

Do your very best to get your boy registered as daddy had a long run at the Ekka as grand champion. It's amazing what info the DPI has!!

I for one would send a mare to you registered or not, because this is a line we must not lose!!!

I can hardly sit still and write this, I feel like doing cartwheels around the ceiling
:D :D

esse
30-10-04, 10:58 AM
P.S

Do you know why this line is called 'Silver'? After a wash to the skin they shine silver in the sunshine!! You nearly have to wear sunnies lol
Esse.

sandie
04-11-04, 10:39 AM
Henrys_hill if the colt is not registered as a colt with the apsb by the breeder, then you will be wasting your time trying to get him registered as a colt with them, without the breeders permission or a service certificate it is a lost cause. I do agree with the other posters that say geld him because there are so many stunning pony stallions available for mare owners to use today and most mare owners probably would not consider using a colt or stallion that is not fully registered with a recognised breed society anyway or you could keep grasping at straws and try this society and that society but when push comes to shove stallions registered with a recognised breed society will win out every time, he may be a lovely boy but if the saddle pony society is one of the only opptions available for you to get him registered then geld him.

jodie
07-11-04, 04:45 AM
Can I offer you some advice from someone who has been in a similar situation?

My stallion was able to be registered and all was above board. I got him at a bargain price as a yearling. I bred several very nice foals by him. Last week I had him gelded, as a 5yo, to the protest of some other breeders.

Unless you have a lot of time/space/money it is very difficult to do. There is not much of a market for registered youngstock, let alone crossbred or unregistered ones. By the time you grow them out to breaking-in age, have them started under saddle and advertise them you will spend a lot of money. If you really want to breed a couple of ponies you would be better off getting the best mares you can afford and sending them to the best stallion you can afford.

I have three lovely purebred females and I enjoy chosing stallions for them to go to much more than I enjoyed the stress of owning a stallion myself. I only want to breed a maximum of 2 foals a year from here on, and I am trying to sell several partbred youngtsers to make room. Outside mares are an enormous hassle of you don't have a lot of time or people to help, and you will make practically no money on them.

My stallion will make a great saddle gelding, I am sure of that. He was good enough for breeding, but this way everyone is happier... myself and the pony especially. It costs a lot more than a stud fee to keep a stallion for a year.