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Henrys_hill
31-07-04, 11:44 AM
ok, im looking to purchase a colt, but the dam of the colt is the dam of my fillys dam (so shes a grand dam). Can they be bred, or is this inbreeding?

Alpeony
31-07-04, 12:16 PM
There is nothing to stop you doing it Henrys_hill but you have to ask yourself if this level of inbreeding (as it certainly is inbreeding) will produce a desirable result.
There are examples in the thoroughbred world where it has been done successfully with good results but the thing to consider is that this level of inbreeding will increase the risk of undesirable genetic attributes being expressed in the offspring. Also, if this family is carrying a recessive gene for any of the myriad of inherited genetic faults then the chance of it being expressed are rather high.
You need to seriously look (as in with an honest eye) at the 2 horses in question and ask yourself if the potential offspring will be worth the risk. Also, take a look at their pedigrees and see what level off inbreeding or line breeding already exists in the individuals in question because if they are already heavily linebred then I would assume that the risks would be even greater.

Good luck with the decision :)

jodie
01-08-04, 12:08 PM
I have a little colt here whose dam's sire and sire's dam's sire are the same horse, so similar to the relationship between your filly and the colt you are looking at. This is linebreeding, and creates a 2x3 duplication in the pedigree, meaning that the colt carries 37.5% blood from the horse he is linebred to.

When you consider breeding along these lines you need to look very closely at the horse/pony whose pedigree you will be duplicating - in your case, the dam of the colt. Is that mare worth having twice in a pedigree within 3 generations? If she is an outstanding individual then that should not be a problem.

The other thing you need to think about is whether you would consider your filly and the colt you are looking at as suitable to mate on type, ignoring the pedigree. If they share any faults at all then it is likely that this comes from the common ancestor and is then more likely to be passed on to any foals that they may produce together.

Also look at the rest of the pedigree of both horses. If this is the only line they share and the rest of their pedigrees are unrelated then that is better than doubling up on more than one line.

Linebreeding is used in many breeding programmes to set type, but must be used very carefully.
Inbreeding is when you cross immediate family members - sire over daughter, mare to son, full siblings and half siblings to each other.

If you have other mares that this colt would suit then perhaps you could buy him for them and send your related filly to another stallion. When starting a breeding programme I think it is better to start with stock from different families.

sooki
02-08-04, 01:39 PM
What breed are these horses? That type of cross is not uncommon with TBs. Don't you buy horses from the market to save them? Why are you looking to breed? don't you think you too will be adding to the glut of excess horses, thus perpetuating the market MM situation? Unless these two horses are extraordinary, you already have a buyer for the offspring or you can afford to keep the resultant foal yourself, please do not breed.

Henrys_hill
02-08-04, 03:19 PM
Yes i buy horses from the market, but no its not them im looking to breed. Not that you have any right to say who can breed and not breed just because of where i sometimes get my horses from! So get off your F***** high horse and leave me alone.
Anyone can breed for personal use, you dont have to be a rich toff noff, yes i can afford to keep the offspring and yes i have a buyer.
Why am i looking to breed..because i want to have my own stud, and you have to start somewhere.
So as your name says..go and have a sooki somewhere else.

sooki
03-08-04, 10:13 AM
Do not be so sensitive. Anyone can breed horses. What I was trying to get across is that so many people breed horses (and cats and dogs) with very little thought as to what will happen to the offspring - check RSPCA dump rates and sadly the horses you get to see at the market. I think it is admirable that you attempt save some of these horses, but a lot of them are there because people just breed to have a foal. Excellent if you will keep the 'kids' or are fortunate enough to have someone already who likes your mare and you will be virtually breeding to order - that would be any breeder's dream. Don't be so thin skinned.

Henrys_hill
03-08-04, 10:33 AM
sorry, just lately everyones trying to kick me in the stomach for wanting to do what ive always dreamed of..and i gathered you were joining the crew.

yes the only way im breeding is to order, or 1 or 2 max a year or two years for myself. My heart bleeds everytime i see a foal at the monthly markets, from heartless breeders who just serve mares for the hell of it. Any horses and ponies i breed will always have a home and be kept for, wether its me or a buyer i know personally.
Ive seen lots of nice foals that given that little bit extra could have proved themself if given a chance, everyones on such a hurried time frame, or fashioned lines go out of favour so those horses get the boot. I dont understand that, if it performs to your expectations and is confirmationally correct, well y should it matter what lines it has.
So many families are wanting a horse, which they can afford, but instead of advertising all these unwanted horses, the owners just ditch them at markets! theres a lot of ad venues that reaches a wide audience that costs nothing to use.

Jan Heine
04-08-04, 04:40 PM
Sorry Jodie - can't help myself and I am not taking potshots at you!

I was told by Australia's most highly respected and successful breeder of racehorses that it is called linebreeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't and 90% of the time it doesn't work!

That has stuck in my mind - but he also explained that when linebreeding/inbreeding you need to use lines which have the least amount of "faults" and your breeding pair must be almost totally perfect because any faults will be magnified in their off spring.

Henry's Hill I would suggest that "close breeding" is something that should only be done when you have total access to the vital information of both sides and this information should go back many many generations so that you can make an informed decision - it is very difficult and perhaps not something that should be lightly undertaken by breeders beginning.

Go with your dream Henry's Hill but make sure that you study every available piece of information on thelines oyu are using and ask everyone you can about what their ideas are on breeding - your head will be swimming and you will go to sleep dreaming of x,y,z factors and breed definitions etc. and at the end of the day you will make up your own mind but it will be an informed mind - and my one piece of advice is to make a firm decision in your own mind as to what market you are breeding for and then go for it!

Too many people I have seen over the years start off believing they want to breed an Olympic horse and then end up using a crippled mare or a stallion with incorrect conformation/genetic defects and then they are disappointed with what they have bred and usually blame the stallion............and I am NOT suggesting this is what you are doing Henry's Hill cos I don't know who you are - just waffling really - something I am well known for I guess! :g

excited angel
05-08-04, 12:40 AM
Bravo Jan! Bravely said, I agree wholeheartedly. After reading all the messages on this topic I wonder if Henrys Hill has enough experience (years) - please no offense intended. Breeding is wonderful but what is your objective? - a better horse or $$$. M

Henrys_hill
05-08-04, 07:51 AM
thats ok no offense taken, ive worked on and off for about 4 years with thoroughbred studs and know all the facts and stuff like that, and it is daunting to finally taking my desired steps. Im not in it for the money, i just want to breed a foal or two every few years for my own personal use (ponies) for allrounder ponies..everyone is soo taken up on breeding ponies for showing, that they forget theyre very good for other uses, eg dressage etc. (im also breeding tbs but thats with me just having the broodmare! lol)I want to better the ponies and there uses, and wouldnt worry me if i never made a cent from it at all. :)
But anyone who can help me, its greatly appreciated!!

esse
18-09-04, 11:33 AM
Hi! I've not long been around this forum, but from what I can gather you know your stuff!Who gives a flying fart about your reasons, we don't know you, only you know your true heart. Anyway as you are a pony person, I was hoping you could help me find out what an Australian Pony looks like. I think I may have picked one up from a doggers yard. My experience is with Welsh and Shetland crosses.
Bye for now Esse

Henrys_hill
21-09-04, 02:34 PM
well as my 2 are going to be different all i can do is email a pic for you. my colt is going to be a lighter pony than what my filly is. just email me and ill send it

Adam
23-09-04, 02:25 PM
Are you the same woman who used to "sell" rugs etc on eBay?