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View Full Version : N/H 'Crossbred' dogs vs Purebreds



thesaddleclub101
15-02-11, 06:28 PM
Without turning this into too much of a controversial thread, I've been reading the Dogzonline Forum lately which got me thinking about what CHers think of Crossbred dogs as opposed to purebreds?

My dog Tia (who lives at home with my parents) is a 12 year old Lhasa Apso x Japanese Spitz (I did promise pictures on another thread and will dig some up). We bought her from a small 'breeder' who only bred a few litters, at 7 weeks old and she has stayed with us since then. She is sociable both with other dogs and humans, not yappy, doesn't have a single medical problem and never has (touch wood). She is just a lovely dog in general and a pleasure to own.

She's also had two beautiful litters of puppies (she is now desexed) which we sold to excellent homes (we caught up with many of the buyers a few years down the track and they still had the pups and were very, very happy).

I have to admit I was pretty surprised when I was reading up on all the negativity towards crossbred dogs! I would of thought that if the dog is vet checked, socialised properly with other humans and dogs and given correct behavioural guidance then everything should be just dandy! As far as I know there are plenty of purebred dogs out there who come with their own inherited behavioural quirks and possible medical issues so it definitely isn't something just confined to crossbred dogs.

How does everyone else feel about this? If you have a dog do you own a purebred or crossbred? Pictures are very welcome :)

PS: Not purposely picking on Dogzonline as although I personally wouldn't join up there is so much helpful information available on there about different breeds and training, etc. I just found it odd that there is so much angst towards anything that isn't purebred.

mindari
15-02-11, 06:36 PM
well one of the reasons only purebred breeder are allowed to be members.

what gets up purebred breeders noses is the garden knome, IE don burke, telling people that x breds guarantees they wont inherit genetic problems due to "hybrid vigor" what he didnt say was some families discover to their heartbreak the x bred pup can inherit every problem in both breeds.

we have friends in pony club with a pair of samoyed x and both dogs have hd so bad they have had to have surgery to the tune of thousands of dollars.

ive friends who have had labradors for decades and spent thousands on hip scores and still finding some with fail scores so breeding from scored parents isnt yet a guarantee after all. so more heartbreak there.

i can go on with stories of heaps of xbreds by in the case of one rob zammit showed on tv he had luxating patella and heart murmur despite his hybrid vigor.

all breeding is a lottery even in some cases where all the health tests have been done and the parents clear.

think on it. pedigree breeders are being expected to produce life guaranteeable pups.

yet can any of you do that for your own child??

you cant can you.

because every conception IS a lottery genetic wise

storm horse
15-02-11, 06:37 PM
we own a purebred staffy, but that is the breed my husband wanted as he's had staffy's before.

for me, a good dog isn't defined by breed......................the same goes for horses, cats etc, etc.

skymare
15-02-11, 06:39 PM
Crossbreds are bred by Puppy Farms and backyard idiot breeders who want to put their bitch to the neighbours dog just because. Neither bother with testing genetically inherited conditions and with vaccinating, worming and properly caring for puppies.
Most purebred breeders do. I've not owned a pure bred with problems in health or temperament. However my crossbreds have all had issues. This is why I WIL NOT buy my dogs from shelters anymore. Every animal I have taken from shelters have been dumped crossbreds with issues. If I buy a dog it will be with a reputable breeder and it will be a breed I did my research on to find the most suitability to my lifestyle and requirements. And yes even my moggie has issues. Bred by irresponsible cat owner.

BabyBoomer
15-02-11, 06:47 PM
I opted for these 2 sisters - dad was a mastiff, mum a Rhodesian Ridgeback princess.
They weigh in at about 50 kgs and look fierce enough to deter strangers, which is important for me as I mostly live alone and feel more secure knowing they're around.
I was careful to take them to organized socilization classes when they were puppies, so they are calm and well behaved around children, cats and other dogs.
They are quiet, short haired and low energy.
Only down side is they will run down and kill kangaroos that wander onto my property - the head count is four so far - I've also seen them do the same to rabbits - hence the electronic collars to ensure they don't stray outside my place to hunt.


http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz339/Robynclemen/winterwet024.jpg

Jenny Barnes 1
15-02-11, 06:51 PM
This was discussed not that long ago.

Dogzonline membvers say what they do as backyard breeders who cross their dogs because they are 'pretty', friendly or whatever don't vet check for genetic issues etc and breed coz they can sell em and make some cash whereas the ethical purebred breeders (the one who do it to better the breed not to just breed to sell) do it to better their breed and make sure that the dogs they use for breeding stock pass all the hip, elbow scores, eye tests or whatever is relevant to the breed. They do not breed from dogs with issues. Not every purebred breeder fits in this category either as I know of people who got a purebred and wanted to breed with another 'down the road' coz their dog was 'nice'.

My dog had issues with her back legs from a 7yo - thats too young to be hobbling around from arthritis but thats when it first started. By 10 there were issues with all 4 legs which need to be managed. Her dam was a labrador and who knows what the sire was probably a kelpie or mixed breed kelpie. HAve said before I'd happily get another crossbred like her but certainly would not want to see them called a 'designer breed' and mass produced or even backyard bred to sell on purpose due to the issues. She is lucky we look after her and manage it but imagine those with similar issues left to deal with it in backyards.

Crossbreds used to be 'mistakes' now they are pushed as better than the purebreds due to non proven 'facts' and actively bred ande thats what upsets people on sites like dogzonline. They dont have a 'thing against crossbreds only the production of them on purpose to sell as a commercial item. Personally I reckon people are mad to breed their pet dog with all the problems that can happen and the chance that your dog can die if bad complications set in - who wants to risk losing their own dog just to see some cute puppies when there are way too many dogs without homes out there already.

My parents dog was a golden retriever - very nice dog and my parents always said it would be nice to breed him however I was always against it due to the issue with his back in that it wasnt straight when he sat and while it was never an issue it was a fault that you would not breed on.

Renvers
15-02-11, 06:55 PM
TSC, everyone is going to have a different opinion on this but my personal belief is that while we have such an horrific excess companion animal problem then people should think very hard about breeding cats and dogs.
All the cats and dogs we have ever owned have been strays or from shelters bar one that we were given. All were crossbreeds and moggies and all were wonderful companions and led long healthy lives. One dog required some decent training but ended up being the most wonderful animal we've ever owned. The list of friends I had to ring the day he was put to sleep was longer than a lot of humans would have and quite a few of them broke down over the phone. Everyone who met him loved him to bits. I've known many purebred dogs with dubious temperaments and conformations, more so than the crossbreds I've known, but I think a lot of the problem is to do with breed standards that have deviated for cosmetic reasons. I think it's a given that breed standards based on performance will always produce a healthier, happier animal.
I would love to see a day when all companion animals are neutered and only good breeders allowed to breed. As in the horseworld, I think there is room for well thought out crossbreeding from good stock, as well as purebred dogs.

thesaddleclub101
15-02-11, 07:02 PM
but my personal belief is that while we have such an horrific excess companion animal problem then people should think very hard about breeding cats and dogs.

Excellent point Renvers! I'm very glad that my cat (who I adopted from a rescue org) and dog are now desexed (although her puppies did get excellent 'forever' homes - it wouldn't be something I would want to do again).

It's very interesting hearing opposing views here :)

k8
15-02-11, 07:20 PM
Agree entirely with Renvers. Every dog we have owned has been either dumped, unwanted, deserted by owners or mistreated and all are cross breds ... the exception to our cross bred dogs was our beautiful old kelpie who was not wanted by his owner and given to us. He died last year and because he was such a wonderful fellow we went in search of another kelpie and found a lady who rehomes purebred kelpies that are not wanted by their owners, or don't have the 'work' instinct etc.... we now have 6 dogs...5 crosses and one glorious gorgeous kelpie girl.
When it comes to dogs...I give them a home if we have room, not if they are a certain breed or colour etc... a dog is a dog to me and we have never had a problem dog because we take care to train them properly.
But on the whole...I think way too many dogs are bred out of greed not need. Puppy farms should be shut up now and breeders breeding surplus to needs should be ashamed of themselves too.... and I find it abhorrant that some breeders will kull a litter of pups if they don't meet the colour code or the fur length or the ear shape etc of the perfect show dog...that to me is no better than a puppy farmer.
It's simple arithmetic ..... breed more animals than are needed and they will be mistreated and dumped....so why do it.?

acaciaalba
15-02-11, 07:50 PM
i have to agree with K8 here, about overbreeding. ( applies to dogs, cats, horses, and many other critters as well ).
and also the fact that over my quite long life i have never had a pure bred dog or cat. all rescues of some sort,,,all moggies of some sort,,, ( dogs and cats),,,and all just wonderful animals.
puppy farms are the worst thing i have seen in a long time,,,there is one not far from here,,,shocking,,,why do people even buy from them and keep them in buisness ?? that just beats me !
some of you say there are health problems in crossbreeds,,,and adoptions from the pounds,,,but i know of many health problems in pure breeds too,,,because some breeders are unethical and continue to breed with animals with faults,,,,,just like horses.
its not the breed,,it is the animal,,,that makes for a loving companion.
too many bitzas get passed over, when they make loving pets given half a chance.
all animals have health problems !! ask the vets !! if you havnt twigged to that by now,,, you shouldnt have animals !!

toscall
15-02-11, 08:00 PM
I have only bought 2 dogs off registered breeders, I had to have both put down for different reasons. I hate people breeding animals just because they can, but in saying that I mostly breed my own dogs. They arent registered, some are crossbreds some are purebreds. I dont do it for money and rarely sell pups. My dogs are working dogs (I have one house pet)and my life pretty much revolves around them and my horses. What constitutes a backyard breeder? Is it someone who breeds pups for money? Is it someone like my self who breeds a litter of pups every couple of years? As for people breeding horses, how many times on this forum have we seen gorgeous photos of foals put up by excited owners. I doubt they are all registered breeders. Crossbred, purebred, dont care a good dog is a good dog and everyone has their own idea of what a good dog is.

KelJ
15-02-11, 08:33 PM
Crossbreds are bred by Puppy Farms and backyard idiot breeders who want to put their bitch to the neighbours dog just because.

I pretty much agree with the above. I've only ever owned crossbred dogs and will only ever own pound puppies. However, I would never pay money to a breeder of a crossbred animal as I think it's extremely irresponsible considering the over population of dogs we have (regardless of whether one thinks it's ok as all of their puppies found good homes).

In saying that, I'm sure there are breeders of purebred animals that are less than reputable also.

kevarose
15-02-11, 08:46 PM
Mindari I htink I am with the 'Garden Gnome' on hybrid genetic vigour. As you know I have bought two golden retriever puppies from the best breeder I could find (both cost around $1200) and I sadly lost the first one at 11 months. I determined to have a golden as their nature is so predictable with children that come here.

I love my Livvie (my new puppy) so much - she is the best companion I have had - but she has mega issues with atopic dermatitis and is allergic to most commercial foods and most animal protein (although tuna is OK and maybe rabbit). Have spent a fortune and do not need more advice on her issues.

But the breeder is planning on breeding from the bitch again even though she knows what an issue there has been with Olivia and there were some dermatitis issues with a pup from a previous litter.

When you breed for a certain conformation or hip score or whatever, other genes may be linked to what you are playing with. My friend with a labradoodle has no health issues at all.

I will in future buy or rescue a X bred, but never from a pet shop. I just hope Livvie lives forever.

Love your dogs Renvers! Here is Livvie earlier today
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/kevarose/IMG_0029.jpg

mindari
15-02-11, 08:54 PM
I do think you have been incredibly unlucky, having quite a few neighbours round here with goldens and not a health problem in the lot. but if her mum has had another the same why on earth would her breeder breed from her again. once is unlucky, twice is definately proves something is wrong with her makeup.

she is such a darling girl its heartbreaking when they have a problem like that, any problem for that matter.

i know a puppy a friend wanted right or wrong and i was very concerned because she was very small for her age. turned out she was incubating an infection in her sinus. once discovered and cured. not a fast fix. took two months, she took off growth wise and is now the same size as her littermates. but usualy when theres a big difference in growth rates theres something wrong, in this case its all turned out but sure was a worry at the time

moosh
15-02-11, 10:27 PM
I have had 2 Purebred Yellow Labs. Kahlua lived to the ripe old age of 12, had lots of problems with her hips from the age of 10 but nothing some mild pain meds couldn't fix & Miss Holly is 4 & perfect.
They both have amazing natures and are fabulous with littlies (I have 2yr old triplet nephews & Hol lets them climb all over her & goes back for more - Yes they are closely supervised). Holly is a fabulous guard dog as well.
I personally would never have another breed, though would more likely rescue a Guide Dog reject in the future

Holly (Dark Yellow) & Kahlua

[IMG]http://s1083.photobucket.com/albums/j392/moosh1610/?action=view&current=006.jpg

mum1
15-02-11, 10:39 PM
Just want to add that I have owned pure breds and xbreds over the years and have had nothing but wonderful companions for the dogs I have purchased from Animal Welfare etc both in NSW and VIC. I also have bought from breeders so certainly dont have any biased opionions. All dogs can have probs just like us human folk but I certainly wouldnt put anyone off purchasing from a reputable shelter or the like.

Not all xbreds are bred by non caring people either. My daughter has a 17yo mini foxie x blue cattle dog,sounds strange but she is gorgeous. Was the honest accidental mating of the pedigree foxie to the farm bluey.Foxie was a reg breeding bitch and nothing was thought of until the little ones were born. All found immediate wonderful homes.

Jenny Barnes 1
15-02-11, 11:13 PM
mum1 - that was clearly an accident as opposed to the byb who breed to sell cute puppies on purpose. But such accidents arent so common these days whereas breeding to make quick cash is - just look at some of the classifieds remembering in addition to bloodlines puppies need to stay with their littermates till the right age or they can have issues later.

mum1
15-02-11, 11:31 PM
Very true JB1

Bats_79
16-02-11, 12:24 AM
We used to breed Jack Russels. They are essentially an "unregistered" breed. At one stage we did register our dog and bitch but honestly, the crap that went along with registration wasn't worth it.

As far as we were concerned if the dogs had the health to live outside, could hunt all day, travel for tens of kilometres and get carted around in the saddle bags on a horse then they were worth breeding.

Never had an unhealthy puppy (few still born) and never had any trouble selling the pups privately. Unfortunately the last lot of pups from our elderly bitch were from a nasty little pom across the road and my brother refused to keep one out of annoyance. Now we no longer have a dog to carry on the bloodline we have had for 25 years. :( But we were definitely back yard breeders when it came to dogs.

mackiemad
16-02-11, 02:16 AM
the thing about going for a purebred dog is that you have a really good idea on what exercise and training requirement the dog will need/have and, more importantly to me, what the temperament of the dog will probably be.

there are variations in every breed, but i got my purebred dog because i wanted something specific to my needs in personality and in exercise requirements and he is perfect for us. everythign i expected, wanted and wished he could be.

have i had rescue dogs? yes. my most beloved dog was a bitsa that was a rescue and he lived to a ripe old age. he had serious issues with his hips because they weren't conformationally sound or in proportion to the rest of his body. but a sweeter, more patient and kinder dog i have never met. and i would never hesitate in getting another 'pound puppy' regardless of the breed/s.

however i have also had a rescue dog which was euth'd because he because extremely human agressive and behaviouralists, vets etc could not help us over a long period. when he learnt how to escape from the property (we have no idea to this day where or how he was getting out of a 10foot high fence, dug into the ground and with a thick hedge of 1 m wide and 5 m tall on the inside of it?!) he became a serious danger to the public and not just us and our guests. so we made the decision to put him down.

my next dog may be a rescue, but i honestly do like the security that a good, purebred dog gives you. you know what to expect, you can make sure that the animal has the best chance of not having genetic or conformational issues and you have the support and safety net of a good breeder.

i think saying that you think dogzonline is against crossbred dogs is odd - it very publically states that it is a forum for purebred dogs, dog breeders, owners and enthusiasts. owners of crossbreeds are of course allowed, but it is the enthusiasm for purebred dogs that led to the creation fo the forum...so naturally they are pro-pedigree dogs.

equally i find it morally wrong to breed you own crossbred dog because you want to, you like her, or worst of all- because you think she deserves the chance to have pups. it is a serious health risk for the bitch and the world does not need more dogs and pups that are hard to place. the resuce system is already full enough. i will never breed dogs or cats. i have them for pets and no other reason (ie. work dogs), so i have no place in breeding. unless you can give a morally justifiable reason for breeding your bitch i'm dead set against it. accidents will happen of course, but to breed intentionally for wispy reasons like you want pups, think it is a financial venture or cos your dog is nice-whether cross or pure bred- is pretty wrong IMHO.

moosh-on 'rescuing' a failed guide dog- a friend of mine was considering it and the waiting list was over 2 years! extraordinary! but then that may just be in vic...

Anubis
16-02-11, 06:06 AM
I love a good mut a type I distinguish strongly from "oodles"

I do however think that muts can be bred to a purpose look at the wonderful Lurchers our Brit cousins have. Gorgeous and originally gypsy bred for a range of different types of hunting/poaching with the mix depedent up what they are used for.

Our own very elderly boy is just such a crossbred being bred for pigging (has never seen a pig) but one element of his breeding now makes for a banned dog so OH and I will be looking at either a different mix or a Boerboel when it is time for him to cross the rainbow bridge (not so far very away I think). I spend a lot of time alone and I have come round to liking a dog with deterrent if not man-eating skills.

Djangoandjacana
16-02-11, 06:51 AM
I think the issue is not the dog but what sits behind it, and not just it's genetics. Mynfirst dog was a xbred typical accident puppy. Unsure of parentage. He was fine in every health way he was just an amazing escape artist so we ended up giving away to some friends as we lived on a main road.

I didn't have another dog for 15 years and have had two borders and two Aussies. I wanted a border the first time too but being a child and impatient whe faced on my birthday with waiting for a border puppy or taking the puppy in my arms I took the one in my arms. Given our circumstances we weren't the right home for a birder either so probably just as well

I don't think there was an issue with crossbred dogs all the years they were the accidents you had to find homes for. They became an issue when cute crossbred puppies became big business. If I was looking for another dog I'd be looking for a purebred because I like the dogs I have and would want the same again (either Aussie or border) and I would never pay out big bucks for a mutt. If on the other hand someone had an accidental mutt, I knew the mother and it was a cute puppy and I was looking for a dog I'd be happy to
take one. It's not the dogs fault it is a mutt but it is peoples fault for using them the way puppy farms do.

Autumn
16-02-11, 12:58 PM
I havent read through all the posts as I really havent got time but I would just like to say there is a place for cross bred and pure bred dogs.

Personally, Im a pure breed fan. I have border collies who are registered with VCA and have papers etc. The best thing about a registered pure bred dog is the registration is the guarantee of what you are getting. As for health problems - it can come with all types of dogs - I believe its related to diet and lifestyle!!!

Any body can cross any dog to anything and then make claims. BUT Ive met some beautiful cross bred dogs and certainly will not deny that they are great animals.

Not all pure bred and cross bred breeders are 'doing the right thing' by the dogs or prospective owners - but I guess we all know that.

What annoys me the most is the price of the so called designer cross breds - in reality they CAN (and do) breed anything to anything so there is NO GUARANTEE you are getting what you paid for.

mindari
16-02-11, 01:13 PM
I havent read through all the posts as I really havent got time but I would just like to say there is a place for cross bred and pure bred dogs.

Personally, Im a pure breed fan. I have border collies who are registered with VCA and have papers etc. The best thing about a registered pure bred dog is the registration is the guarantee of what you are getting. As for health problems - it can come with all types of dogs - I believe its related to diet and lifestyle!!!

Any body can cross any dog to anything and then make claims. BUT Ive met some beautiful cross bred dogs and certainly will not deny that they are great animals.

Not all pure bred and cross bred breeders are 'doing the right thing' by the dogs or prospective owners - but I guess we all know that.

What annoys me the most is the price of the so called designer cross breds - in reality they CAN (and do) breed anything to anything so there is NO GUARANTEE you are getting what you paid for.

me too ive nothing against x breds, the good uns are great.

but over 1,000 for something that was either given away or sold to cover the vaccinations when i was a kid is now a "designer" who are they trying to kidd??????:confused:

MMC
16-02-11, 02:42 PM
My Granny, (who bred and showed purebred Beagles) would have fallen off her chair laughing at the whole designer dog thing.

I have a good friend who paid $1500 for a maltese shitzu cross. I laughed so hard because I thought she was joking me. Turns out she was serious.

acaciaalba
16-02-11, 02:52 PM
$1500 for a dog !! are you kidding me ???
(yes, i can see that and more for a good working dog like a kelpie or whatever,,,)
but a ball of fluff ?? 1500 ?? are you sure you heard her right MMC ? she didnt mumble and you got confused ????
OMG !! to use one of my Mum,s favourite sayings,,,,,"more money than sense " !!
thats absurd !!

MMC
16-02-11, 02:56 PM
$1500 for a dog !! are you kidding me ???
(yes, i can see that and more for a good working dog like a kelpie or whatever,,,)
but a ball of fluff ?? 1500 ?? are you sure you heard her right MMC ? she didnt mumble and you got confused ????
OMG !! to use one of my Mum,s favourite sayings,,,,,"more money than sense " !!
thats absurd !!

Yes, I heard her right. :) She told me it was because she was a designer dog. That is where I just shut up.

More money than sense is very true.

windsweptfarm
16-02-11, 03:10 PM
My dog is a Maltese x something lol. Probably got some sort of terrier in her. We bought her from a pet store, but she is the cutest little thing. A bit naughty and not always obedient, the "come here" command doesn't work very well xD.

We haven't had any health issues with her. She is a very happy (and very spoilt!!!!) little dog, who loves to play, both with you and other dogs, sleep on the couch all morning and eat your food instead of her own :rolleyes: She is great with people too, jumpy when people come over cause she's so excited to see them, but really good with babies and little kids. She's fantastic with other dogs too

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh319/windsweptfarm/Screenshot2011-02-16at20700PM.png

LindaH
16-02-11, 05:09 PM
When the OH and I started going out we realised we had dogs from the same border collie breeder. Not only were they from the same breeder, but they were actually brothers from the same litter! OH's was definately a pure bred Border Collie, but I strongly suspect the breeders labrador dog got a go at the bitch either before or after they locked her up, because my dog bore a striking resembalance to their black lab :eek:, but with longer hair. No dogs had any issues, but my crossbred one did out live his littermate by 5 years.
I've got a couple of purebred whippets now and one was born with a deformed leg joint that the vet is so fascinated by, he shows it to vet students whenever he can :D.

mindari
16-02-11, 05:39 PM
ive one a friend bred. he is missing the bones in one toe. perfectly formed toe. including nail...just no bones inside it??

acaciaalba
16-02-11, 05:50 PM
Yes, I heard her right. :) She told me it was because she was a designer dog. That is where I just shut up.

More money than sense is very true.

a designer dog !!
what a major dis-service that word has done to the dog world ?
what exactly defines a designer dog pray tell ?? Mindari ?? can you explain that to a dumbo like me ?? whats it mean ?? or is it something puppie farmers invented ??
in cats,,,,,,,,wouldnt it just be a "moggie",,,,,,,,,,or do they have designer cats too these days, ?? ??
if they do,,,,whats a designer cat ??? a mix of 2 or 3 breeds maybe ??? in which case i have a designer cat !!
whoooo hooooo !
and he didnt cost me a penny !!!
how good is that ??
designer cats available at all rescue outlets !!!
only cost involved is desexing and microchipping !!

Sim
16-02-11, 06:06 PM
Frankly I am at a loss as to why it is generally assumed that pure bred dog breeders are considered to be more dedicated, knowledgable, responisible and better dog owners?

My mother and father bred Great Danes for quite a few years. The reason they gave up was because they were so disillusioned with the actions and morals of other "pure bred " dog owners, including those who openly admitted to supplying puppies with HD, in breeding and drowning puppies that were not sold within a certain time frame, yet re-breeding the same bitch before the puppies were sold?

Like the horse world, the dog world has a certain contingent that will hide behind a label rather than prove themselves good dog people through right and responsible actions. It is not about whether a dog is pure bred or not, but rather that it is "well- bred", just like horses IMO.

mindari
16-02-11, 06:40 PM
a designer dog !!
what a major dis-service that word has done to the dog world ?
what exactly defines a designer dog pray tell ?? Mindari ?? can you explain that to a dumbo like me ?? whats it mean ?? or is it something puppie farmers invented ??
in cats,,,,,,,,wouldnt it just be a "moggie",,,,,,,,,,or do they have designer cats too these days, ?? ??
if they do,,,,whats a designer cat ??? a mix of 2 or 3 breeds maybe ??? in which case i have a designer cat !!
whoooo hooooo !
and he didnt cost me a penny !!!
how good is that ??
designer cats available at all rescue outlets !!!
only cost involved is desexing and microchipping !!


the first time i heard it, it came from the mouth of the garden gnome.

n the baying hasnt stopped since

the guy who thought he had found the answer to blind people with dog allergies and created the labradoodle has now gone on record he wished he had never done so considiering the immence amount of oodles now being bred and marketed as alergy free when they on the main half do shed.

half the x breds shed. only pure poodles are 100 percent non shedding. but what oodle breeder is going to admit that

md
16-02-11, 06:52 PM
While I love all dogs of all breeds, and or cross bred dogs, I am extremely against the deliberate (or not) breeding of cross breeds and or designer breeds, they are not designer breeds they are mutts, probably very loveable mutts but mutts just the same.

I feel we have well and truly enough breeds to chose from that we do not need to reinvent yet another breed, I do realise that is how a lot of the purebred dogs came about but in 2011 we have enough different purebred dogs to choose from and all backyard/designer breeders should be banned imho, difficult to police I know (this is not aimed at you Bats as you bred a breed for years but just didn't support AKC which I can understand completely so many breeders do not for various reasons).

I would love a crossbred dog as much as a purebred but I prefer to support the breeders who are trying to improve their breed (hopefully I say that with tongue firmly in cheek :) ) and breed to promote their breed and for the love of their breed, not the designer breeders who are just jumping on an extremely stupid bandwagon all in the name of money grabbing.

There are some dreadful purebred breeders out there just as there are many good backyard breeders, so if they are breeding 'purebred' dogs I am happy to support either, just not the ones where oooops missy was got to by the mongrel down the road, or those that deliberatly breed designer breeds.

And yes I agree completely with Renvers one should think long and hard about breeding, cats, dogs and horses, as someone who has spent quite a bit of time and money in recent months rescueing feral cats and kittens due to a very slack neighbour who refuses to desex anything nothing gets me more annoyed than indiscriminate breeding.

cheers

acaciaalba
16-02-11, 07:26 PM
with you there, MD.
rescuing cats,,,,dumped females reproducing,,,,can only save so many and find homes for so many,,,taking them to be put down is soul destroying,,,especially when they cry for help when hauled out of the cage.
its too upsetting for words,,poor things just asking for a chance at life.
idiots who dont desex,,,,,who dump,,,,,who dont care one iota about the life of these animals,,,,,and then we see others producing litter after litter of "pure breds" and selling them for lots of money,,,,to me its just criminal.
i reckon every pure bred breeder,,,who should have strict licencing laws applied to them,,,,should be made to come and help with the moggies who are dumped and mistreated.

MMC
16-02-11, 09:28 PM
MD I know rescuing must be heart breaking and I admire you for what you are doing absolutely.

If it helps, one of your rescues, was just tucked into his owners bed about 15 minutes ago, purring his little head off. :)

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp34/MMCHorses/Vortex005.jpg

He is loved and spoilt and just about the most awesome kitty ever. He talks to us and is the most affectionate kitty ever. He just loves people and needs to be with us all the time. (We also call him, 'Wow, Wow' because that is what he says when he is hungry)

Thank you again for saving and looking after your neighbours 'mistakes'.

ETA this was a feral barn kitty. ;)

Harriette
16-02-11, 09:57 PM
I have a little poodle x west highland and she is adorable,(and doesnt shed)
I am not a dog person, but I accepted this one, and havent regretted it
http://usera.ImageCave.com/harriette/IMGP0908.JPG

GoneRama
17-02-11, 12:16 AM
Go the mutts!!!

We have a 'Territory Special/camp dog' no idea what the hell he is, we adopted him from the last aboriginal community we were in in the desert and he is just an unreal little dog. Sooo full of personality, had a rough time from the black fellars in Kintore, we fed him up and thus we now have the most loyal dog one could come across who is rather protective. He is as tough as nails. OH accidently put some forks of a front end loader across his shoulders, nearly killed him but he bounced up was sore for a few hours and by the end of the day he was hooning around no worries.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/179340_486029731395_721376395_6432540_6616846_n.jp g
Here he is, Mungas (as in Mongrel Dog!) pic taken during a swim out at the water falls.

We also have a Kelpie x Staffie, never again would I go for this cross! While I love Roo to bits and he's my best mate he's deffinately a once off! He is Mr Personality to the 100th degree, never shuts up, completely psycho, ball crazy, laser crazy, chases dragon flies, loves the stock whip and gun and back chats like you wouldn't believe! You can't wear him out (believe me I've tried!) and he is so far up himself it's just unbelievable! I love him though and wouldn't have him any other way strangely enough, plus he's devilishly handsome and he knows it! Very very smart dog and I think that's half our problem is trying to give him things to keep his mind occupied, so far shredding coconuts seems to work.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/66623_442109561395_721376395_5754727_1949449_n.jpg

GoneRama
17-02-11, 12:21 AM
The other cross we had was a Blue heeler x Catahoula Hunting dog. OMG dumb as and have heard a few people say similar things about Catahoulas. They turn into really good dogs but just takes a few years of frustration apparently.
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/67340_437151111395_721376395_5669956_7938768_n.jpg
This look says it all! She ended up getting run over by a Landcruiser and had to get put down. She was a cute dog but looks and brains just didn't work in this package.

The latest 'cross' that we're taking on is a Blue Heeler x Red Heeler (not much difference really although dad has something else in him)
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/179848_494958471395_721376395_6552903_755688_n.jpg
We're hoping he's going to grow into a guard dog.

GoneRama
17-02-11, 12:23 AM
So in regards to purebred v cross bred... I'm not really fussed either way. All the dogs I've had have been mixes of some sort and depends upon the mix depends what you get just like with horses.

Autumn
17-02-11, 11:20 AM
Hows this for pricing.......

Guy from work many years ago (he was in Melbourne) wanted a chocolate labradoodle - but they where hard to get and he found one for... are you sitting down $3000 - yep thats not a typo. He thought it was a bit much for one so found one for the much cheaper price of $1000!!

I not only was gobbsmacked but laughed at him for paying so much for a cross bred mutt with no guarantee of breeding. He was NOT impressed lolololol.

My new pure bred border collie, registered with VCA (guarantee of breed), rego papers included, microchipped, hip/elbow/eye scanned, wormed and vacc is costing me $700. He is well bred with no line or inbreeding (checked his papers).

I thought this price was ok. We plan to breed him to my pure bred bitch in a few years too.

mindari
17-02-11, 11:33 AM
Go the mutts!!!

We have a 'Territory Special/camp dog' no idea what the hell he is, we adopted him from the last aboriginal community we were in in the desert and he is just an unreal little dog. Sooo full of personality, had a rough time from the black fellars in Kintore, we fed him up and thus we now have the most loyal dog one could come across who is rather protective. He is as tough as nails. OH accidently put some forks of a front end loader across his shoulders, nearly killed him but he bounced up was sore for a few hours and by the end of the day he was hooning around no worries.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/179340_486029731395_721376395_6432540_6616846_n.jp g
Here he is, Mungas (as in Mongrel Dog!) pic taken during a swim out at the water falls.

We also have a Kelpie x Staffie, never again would I go for this cross! While I love Roo to bits and he's my best mate he's deffinately a once off! He is Mr Personality to the 100th degree, never shuts up, completely psycho, ball crazy, laser crazy, chases dragon flies, loves the stock whip and gun and back chats like you wouldn't believe! You can't wear him out (believe me I've tried!) and he is so far up himself it's just unbelievable! I love him though and wouldn't have him any other way strangely enough, plus he's devilishly handsome and he knows it! Very very smart dog and I think that's half our problem is trying to give him things to keep his mind occupied, so far shredding coconuts seems to work.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/66623_442109561395_721376395_5754727_1949449_n.jpg

lol suspect thats the kelping in him. most staffies i know are happy to sleep the day away.

borders tend to be that way too. give em a job or expect to be driven nuts keeping them occupied. a few chooks in the yard and alls sweet. ni would spend all day herding them ... peace reigned again.

although not before he chewed through every orchid i had. sheesh

mindari
17-02-11, 11:38 AM
The other cross we had was a Blue heeler x Catahoula Hunting dog. OMG dumb as and have heard a few people say similar things about Catahoulas. They turn into really good dogs but just takes a few years of frustration apparently.
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/67340_437151111395_721376395_5669956_7938768_n.jpg
This look says it all! She ended up getting run over by a Landcruiser and had to get put down. She was a cute dog but looks and brains just didn't work in this package.

The latest 'cross' that we're taking on is a Blue Heeler x Red Heeler (not much difference really although dad has something else in him)
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/179848_494958471395_721376395_6552903_755688_n.jpg
We're hoping he's going to grow into a guard dog.

your the first person ive heard thought a blue heeler to a red heeler was a x bred.?

although if dads got a bit of something else ok then.
ive a daughter of my phil hes a blue and friends asked if they could use him and their girl is a red.. connie and her brothers and sisters are all reds and im at times thinking i should change her name to kaos well however its spelt but shes a beauty , pity she spends most of the day in her water... sure takes after dad. but i just learned so does her mum sooo she will never suffer from heat exhaustion even if i have no hope of keeping my clothes clean

sigh

Autumn
17-02-11, 11:39 AM
Actually most of my border collies (long haired show bred) have been real couch potatoes!!! Our new girl, Perl, who is nearly 2 yrs old is very 'work' orientated. BUT she is happy to lie around most of the day and is very helpful when rounding up the chooks lol.

She is in no way manic about herding BUT I have not let her herding get out of hand (which I think it could have) as have spent time obediance training.

Guy down the road has two borders also - the young one, even though show bred, is a manic herder and kills chooks BUT he has not trained her in any way!!!

mindari
17-02-11, 11:50 AM
Actually most of my border collies (long haired show bred) have been real couch potatoes!!! Our new girl, Perl, who is nearly 2 yrs old is very 'work' orientated. BUT she is happy to lie around most of the day and is very helpful when rounding up the chooks lol.

She is in no way manic about herding BUT I have not let her herding get out of hand (which I think it could have) as have spent time obediance training.

Guy down the road has two borders also - the young one, even though show bred, is a manic herder and kills chooks BUT he has not trained her in any way!!!

gee ni would never hurt them, even when the rooster would belt the daylights out of him the most he would do was rear up and catch himm under his elbow and then lay down with him pinned under his leg. although one day i heard the rooster choking and ran out to find the stupid bird had plucked out so much hair from ni's side he was choking on the hair.

his name was Ninda Niegher which is latin for black. not sure if ive the spelling right, i was only 17 when we bought him, he traced back to one of the oldest border collie kennels still going, its funny one of the most famous border collie kennels and gee now ive forgotten but anyway they are still going over 40 years later even if they only have one or two borders still the line isnt lost, and one cattledog so connie will carry the prefix of one of the longest running border collie kennels in australia and this nits forgotten it for the moment

yay its come back to me ANSAVON.

now they are awesome borders arent they

LindaH
17-02-11, 01:11 PM
My Border Collie x Labrador was totally trustworthy with chooks, cats, horses, cattle, small dogs etc. The only time he broke into the chook pen was to steal the food scraps :D. But, we used to take him water skiing and he would follow the boat out into the lake and swim circles around skiers in the water and boats. He would pick up floating ski gear and take it back to land, he would even gently take a skiers hand by the glove and try to pull you back to land. By the end of the day he would be exhausted and go to sleep under the house. At the beach he would chase waves and try to round them up, the same with the wash from boats, so he did have a bit of herding instinct :D.

spot9
18-02-11, 02:49 PM
I totally agree with Sim!
it is the "ideal world" to think just because somebody is breeding "purebred", they are breeding with honestly and integrity, exactly the same as some not so desireable horse breeders.
I'm a mutts person these days, i have a spotted wagtail! she is devine, rescued from the pound.
have grown up with purebred family dogs who had a gambit of problems, HD, epilepsy, they were genetic problems renown in the breed, and were bought from good show breeders, have plenty of friends with 'purebreds' that have also had many soundness issues.
there is a great deal of luck involved also, but the unscrupulous breeders really make me mad, no matter what, ultimately the animals suffer and our pockets? why do they breed ? just the almighty dollar i guess.
and totally agree with all and the 'designer dog' they are laughable especially if you've got a few decades behind you now, people paying large sums for a cross bred dog is very very amusing!

md
18-02-11, 04:29 PM
MMC only just came back into this thread, doesn't he just look beautiful, how lucky is he, thankyou :)

BabyBoomer
18-02-11, 04:33 PM
It can happen with cats too.

My mother bought a devon rex kitten which became progressively less co-ordinated until she couldn't actually walk anymore - turned out she had cerebral palsy, a well known condition in the breed and the breeder was only too happy to give my mother another kitten.
My mother knew the breeeder would destroy the kitten after the exchange and couldn't give her up - the cat eventually choked on a morsel of meat and suffocated - devastating business.

Autumn
19-02-11, 10:19 AM
My girlfriend bought a Devon rex (well I think it was one) from a breeder. Cost her a fortune but she is alergic to cats and has always wanted one. Its very ugly with very little coat and a very bad attitude.

Came with bad cat flu ??? WTF (the breeder said all cats have it!!!) and she was told in not uncertain terms NOT to breed with her. The breeder would not have sold that cat to her if she wanted to breed.

I cant believe she paid so much money for a sick, nasty, badly bred cat!!!

Jenny Barnes 1
19-02-11, 10:23 AM
wow - you dont often hear about the issues with cats. But to knowingly breed animals with problems and the other to say they all get sick with cat flu????

bellette
19-02-11, 10:35 AM
A good dog is any sort of dog. However, the animal shelters are overflowing and destroying ,for the most part, crossbred dogs, due to the fact they are MORE 'expendable' ie cheaper, or free. There is very little excuse for breeding them as a large proportion WILL end up as landfill. Blunt enough?

Autumn
19-02-11, 10:41 AM
yes bellette - blunt but true. the amount of unwanted cats and dogs that are destroyed is shocking. I TRY to believe that if someone pays for a cat or dog they will give it a better home because they value it more (well that the theory anyway).

Bats_79
19-02-11, 11:48 AM
I'm sorry but I find the implication that "purebreds" are better than "crossbreds" to be ridiculous.

There are too many dogs bred full stop. It doesn't have anything to do with which ones are good or not, which ones have problems or not, but the fact that they should be being bred AT ALL.

md
19-02-11, 12:00 PM
Bats I don't think anyone is saying purebreds are better than cross breds, if you read most of the threads most agree that a nice dog is a nice dog, whether it be pure or cross, however I think many, well I am saying that we should be supporting the breeders who breed quality, sound and sane dogs that are purebred, rather than supporting the designer breeders and or the backyard breeders that are breeding more by accident than design which of most are cross bred dogs, doesn't mean I don't think a cross bred dog is not nice, some of the nicest dogs I have met have been of the Heinz variety, but to actively support the breeding of indiscriminate cross bred/designer type dogs is adding more to the dumped dog situation.

I also think that registered breeders need to look seriously hard at themselves and to what they are breeding, when I was on dogzonline a while back and mentioned that I had rehomed one of my aussie shepherds as it was killing my cats I got slaughtered, I didn't just up and give my dog away, I worked long and hard to make it work for nearly 18 months before the decision was made, and I made dam sure he went to a loving caring home, yet when browsing the dogzonline mature dog sales I find many are their breeding dogs who are no longer of any use to them, ie they cannot be bred from as they have reached the maximum number of litters allowed by the AKC or they are too old to breed, so rather than retire theses lovely dogs in their own home they are rehomed, not for doing anything wrong but for not being of any use. I got my two Aussies when they were a little bit older due to them not being able to find homes for them, so it was either that or put them down, so breeders need to make sure there is a market for their stock, as well as breeding for temperament, type and soundness.

But in the long run, we really need a lot less breeders whether it be purebred or crossbred.

KelJ
19-02-11, 12:22 PM
yes bellette - blunt but true. the amount of unwanted cats and dogs that are destroyed is shocking. I TRY to believe that if someone pays for a cat or dog they will give it a better home because they value it more (well that the theory anyway).

I don't think that someone paying for the animal justifies breeding in any way. Plenty of people part with large sums of money, only to give the dog away once it's out of the cute puppy stage and enters the destructive, bored, untrained stage. Wasn't there a post on here recently about a malamute (sp?) or similar requiring a home. That dog probably didn't come cheap to its original owner.

It's simple really, just don't breed, regardless.

kait21
19-02-11, 01:29 PM
To answer TSC original question about health issues etc. I have had 2 dogs. The first died recently at 15, and we got her as a pup from the RSPCA. She was 3/4 border collie and 1/4 kelpie and a great dog! Never had health issues until she died of old age in December.

Our other dog which lives with my Mum, was bred by a breeder of Irish Setter's but the bitch accidentally got to the neighbour's black lab. She gave the pups away to good homes and we got one :) She's now 9 and looks pretty much like a lab but red. Never really had any health problems either.

I can understand that dog breeders feel about designer dogs and cross breeds just like most of us feel about backyard horse breeders. But I choose expensive purebred horses to have the best opportunity for something sound, safe, trainable and competitive in my discipline. I just look for a nice friendly companion when I look for a dog so am not nearly as fussy.

Just like not all people want to have purebred arabs or whatever. If they were just looking for a nice grass eater then a gyspy cob x stock horse x appaloosa x miniature x clydesdale is probably fine for them

acaciaalba
19-02-11, 06:09 PM
geez,i have never heard about all cats getting cat flue ! what a "porker" that one is !
such an unscrupulous breeder that one must have been !
this thread just goes to show that paying a fortune for an animal doesnt necessarily mean it will be better or healthier that the bitzas.

mindari
19-02-11, 06:48 PM
i do not know where to find the link but apparently the figures are something like there are 6 million dogs born in australia per year.

pedigree breeders i think it said breed less than 60,000 australia wide so that is less than 6 percent of the dogs bred in australia yet all we hear is how bad and how much they should be regulated let alone persecuted for having bred any.

I dont think any one thinks a xbred is any less adorable or trainable or less as a pet. what i and all my generation think that to pay hundreds, let alone thousands for a xbred is the height of insanity.

where's the costs to that xbred breeder for the heath tests, vet checks registration fees, membership fees let alone service fees and or importation fees pedigree breeders fork over to the tunes of tens of thousands in many instances.

as the happy owner of the border pup said she paid 700 yet a friend paid 1,000 for a oodle x, n some were as expensive as 3,000?????

if people refused to pay so much for x breds there wouldnt be such incentive or asked to sight the health checks of the parents first.

also as the article i read pointed out , the figures of impounded dogs amounted to 5% of the known population.

that was news to me, thats for sure.

puts the dumpage rate into a whole new perspective doesnt it :confused:

so it doesnt look like just politicians are the only ones who dont tell the truth the whole truth when the truth isnt to their advantage either.

mindari
19-02-11, 08:12 PM
ho. and i forgot to ask. :D since when were flamesuits only needed if you upset a native or two at dogzonline :rolleyes:

as i recall aarogo's flamesuit has done the rounds here a few times and comes back with a few extra singes each time

mindari
19-02-11, 08:38 PM
geez,i have never heard about all cats getting cat flue ! what a "porker" that one is !
such an unscrupulous breeder that one must have been !
this thread just goes to show that paying a fortune for an animal doesnt necessarily mean it will be better or healthier that the bitzas.


or paying through the nose to a Macquarie Street Gynacologist will give you a live baby either. what pet buyers and breeders even, forget is every conception IS A gamble. regardless of all the health checks available to date.

or we wouldnt be still getting scids babies both human and animal just to name one gene alone

stormy
19-02-11, 09:03 PM
Just to share some info, I recently did an informal survey of 200-odd of my regular grooming dogs, just to see what came up the healthiest.

I've called a 'health issue' anything that needs regular medication, vet visits or affects the quality of life.

The results;
Bitzas (as in your classic heinze-who-knows) 10% (of those 200) of which 1 % had issues
Purebreds - 50% of which 12% had issues
Designer dogs (as in 'oodles,shih-tzu x, malt x, pet shop pup) 40% of which 40% had issues.

So, of the woofers I groom, true mutts are the healthiest, pet shop type dogs are the least healthy.

From my point of view, I'm not a fan of a lot of the DD's. So many have such shocking conformation it's painful to see. I mean, have you ever seen a front foot that points backwards? Or hocks that bend forwards? The worst is sticky-outy eyes that can barely close.

On the other hand, I've got a houseful of true designer dogs. Months, if not years of planning, resulting in a litter of clones who grow up to be exactly as they were planned. These are the rego'd, purebred, health tested, long lived, never see the vet type of dog.

acaciaalba
19-02-11, 11:16 PM
i have a designer cat.
well, i guess he is. he is 3 or 4 different breeds,,,well,,,i think he is,,,
( isnt that what designer breeds are ???? )( who knows what their breeds have been ?? )
he doesnt have cat flu,,,,,never has had,,,and never will have as he has had the jab,,,,,even tho he lived wild under a building for 2 weeks,,,as a child,,,before i caught him and brought him home.
i got him for free. i paid to have him desexed,,,and flu jabbed.
so far he has cost me about $200, not counting food costs of course.
and he is smarter than a lot of humans i know.
so why would i go out and pay a motza for a pure bred ?? who may come with all sorts of problems ??
dont make sense to me ???
breeders !!! in all fields . a lot to answer for !! IMHO !!

sootygemma
20-02-11, 12:44 AM
Very interesting Mindari that purebred breeders accounted for 60,000 dogs in Australia ( 6% of dogs bred).

I read recently that in a country like Britain they destroy 25,000 dogs/cats a year. While in Australia last year we killed 250,000. Shame.

I know how BYB er's add to the problem but part of me wondered why anyone even reg. breeders could breed dogs when they know how dogs are disregarded in this country. But 6 % seems a small percentage.

We pride ourselves as being a nation of dog lovers?? The average person is unaware of pet shops and puppy farms. Sad.

I never really thought about horse breeding as that is something I will not be doing. Can't beleive people who breed horses when the mares are not worth breeding from. Why would you bother unless the offspring is probably going to be stunning? I brought from Dubbo a 3 yr old 1/4 clydie x TB mostly (:)) broken for $1000. Lovely horse but I remember thinking how can that price be worthwhile if you were the breeder? I think this horse was just bred on the side from racing horses.
Horse breeders must definitely do it for love not money.

acaciaalba
20-02-11, 01:31 AM
horse breeders must do it for love not money.
the reputable ones do.
what about the BYBs ??
what do they do it for ? and what happens to the offspring ???

BabyBoomer
20-02-11, 10:09 AM
Well here's my BYB AA - and what do I do with him? ride him and love him to pieces.
Got to say I love the acronym. Some of the people i compete against have 'imp' after their horses's names on the dressage programmes - in future my horse will read 'Solomon's First Light (BYB)' - or is that just plain too pretentious?
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz339/Robynclemen/DSCF8234.jpg

EarsForward
20-02-11, 10:35 AM
Having ''imp'' after the name is nothing to do with pretensions.It is information.It is a naming convention imp becomes part of the horses name(or donkey).Thats what i was always told.And yes my donkeys, and dogs,when i had imports,also had imp after their name.
Ps-I know you were just having laugh ,nothing wrong with BYB if its done responsibly m .

Renvers
20-02-11, 10:53 AM
BB, I think you've put some of your tendon boots on the wrong legs. Velcro always does up towards the back (sorry to nitpick :D )

BabyBoomer
20-02-11, 11:00 AM
No hostility being directed at the 'imp's' Earsforward. No doubt if I'd have had the means I would have arranged to have had one for myself, either from one of the 'big' breeders or importers.
Breeding my own horse was about all I could afford at the time and I'm the first one to admit I was very lucky to end up getting the lovely little horse I'll be riding today - I'm pleased to be one of the exceptions to the BYB horror stories.
Same with my dogs - big, strong, healthy, sane X bred and BYB - I couldn't design more suitable dogs for what I need them for.

EarsForward
20-02-11, 01:35 PM
No hostility being directed at the 'imp's' Earsforward. .

No sweat,I knew that,was just saying what the convention is.
I would never have worried re imports,but what we wanted was not here.
So like every Breed here,someone had to bring them in,they didn't swim over.

Most of my dogs and cats have been x's or bitsa,horses too,but not all .
I have never had a dog with a serious hereditory health problem ever,and my dogs lived good long lives.Did have a small fox t x,min with very wonky leg conformation poor girl,she was my best litttle friend but was killed accidentally,so don'know if her joints may have played up later.We have an old JR x nowm,he slips out of gear every now and then and hops about,then it goes back into place.Barring the occasional accident or ingestion of something they shouldn't ,we do not see a vet very often.

I think desexing should be free for one month ,then the population of cats&dogs would surely drastically drop-seem to be it would be MUCH cheaper then trying run pounds and rescues etc for unwanted overbred animals.

BabyBoomer
20-02-11, 04:12 PM
well done Renvers! :D you spotted the deliberate mistake I included just to see if y'all were paying attention - well that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

EarsForward
20-02-11, 05:56 PM
I think desexing should be free for one month ,then the population of cats&dogs would surely drastically drop-seem to be it would be MUCH cheaper then trying run pounds and rescues etc for unwanted over bred animals.

Duh..I meant one month ANNUALLY(or even all the time..).