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Mystery~Bay
24-07-11, 10:22 PM
I feel like my Tb needs a little oomph and my instructor suggested soy. So tonight I started searching first here then the net in general and now I'm totslly confused.

Maxisoy..I looked at the website and there seems to be 2 products...low gi super fibre pellets...and soyabean meal. Which one are all the CHers talking about in recent threads?

Then it seems people are just buying Full Fat Soy or Soya Beal meal (are they the same thing?) from feed stores as a non-branded thing. Does this require any special preparation?

Then there's Hiform Equisoy which says its debittered and palatable...does this mean the other products are not palatable? Because Dougie does seem a little fussy with is feed....but this seems very expensive and you onlh feed a little scoop so how can it compare to a whole cup??

Then I discover Khonkes Muscle XL and I think perhaps this is a better option just to give him after work days....he js worked 5-6 days a week but sometimes not as hard as others if time does not permit, or I might just do a trailride. Would I still feed it then?

Do you see how confused I am? Bloody net

baileechloe
25-07-11, 12:06 AM
ok When you say you want more OOMPF are we talking energy? Muscle tone? and muscle?? topline?? general condition???



Soyabean meal (also called full fat soy, low trysine soy etc etc) Is a yellow oily powder, it is easily digested some horses dont like it, but i fed all my babies, weanlings etc on this. It is an additive, it is very high protein, which is why they put on muscle , topline, and fat. The oil helps the coat as well.


Muscle XL is a whey product, so basically fat, it helps with coat condition, and assists in topline, feeding skim milk powder can acheive the same result, '

Hope this helps !

Caille
25-07-11, 07:55 AM
The maxisoy pellets are a cool energy source. Like speedibeet but half the price and in every horse I've met's opinion, far tastier. It's great at putting condition on riding horses without blowing their minds.

My mare loves it, but she gets mare-y with anything with phytoestrogens in it (as do I... if I could only share my spironolactone, she'd be a new mare!).

A lot of people feed ffs to put on condition and to meet protein needs of growing horses.

Bisho
25-07-11, 08:10 AM
When you say 'oomph' do you mean more get up and go or more weight?

My two are fed maxi soy but I can't say that they are any more 'energetic' on it.

They are however, looking fabulous and holding their weight beautifully this winter. I don't know if it is the maxi-soy, their other feed, their rugs or a combination of everything but they are looking very healthy.

The maxi-soy is a pellet, like speedibeet (as Caille said) and you soak it for a few mins before feeding. It soaks much quicker than speedibeet and is 'fluffier' and 'lighter' than speedibeet.

My two did not really like speedibeet and seem to prefer the maxi soy. Maxi soy is relatively cheap as well (compared to speedibeet)

Zampari
25-07-11, 08:54 AM
Maxi Soy is what Bisho described. I've never fed it so can't make comment.

Full fat soy or soyabean meal is normally around 45% protein and contains high levels of fat. The fat is fantastic for their coat and for conditioning. The protein is excellent for muscle building. For best results feed it like you would Muscle XL straight after working your horse and it kind of acts like a protein shake does in human athletes. Some horses do very well on FFS and it really helps to fill them out that last little bit. Unfortunately it's also rocket fuel for some horses. My mare reacts to it so badly I can't feed her any feed with soy in it at all so basically all premixes are out as they all contain soy(eg Mitavite, Prydes, Calm Performer and most 'no name' pellets too). I've also had a TB react to it badly and another that did absolutely super on it. You only need to feed a cup or two per day to a big TB. Feeding FFS is likely to be a lot cheaper than feeding any of the muscle building formulas for much the same results. If you're able to buy a small amount first(maybe buy a kilo or two from your instructor??) to try before buying a big bag it would be a good idea to see if your horse is going to be reactive to it.

Harriette
25-07-11, 09:05 AM
Soy is a fairly balanced protein,
milk protein is even more balanced (as its for baby mammals)

protein can be unbalanced, (like most plant based proteins)

the best balance of amino acids (that make up protein) comes from meat meal, ....less than ideal. the next best....milk products or processed balanced protein commercial feeds. But to 'balance' the commercial feeds they will use what ever protein sourced they can buy, quality and otherwise, then 'balance it ' with add ins.

depends what your horses need.
Until I got Davy every horse I had did well on Copra meal. Really well, and they loved it.
But not Mr Special. so I tried soy, and he had a nasty photosensitivity reaction (horrible scabbing/cracking of his whole nose and pasterns from severe sunburn) over the summer.
but it was balanced enough for him, he started to beef up.
end last summer I put him on skim milk powder, and that worked well, once he actually ate it (which was a big issue)
next summer?? I am almost out of ideas. I may try a whey based product. as long as he eats it!

2006eabbott
25-07-11, 09:30 AM
As everyone else said, it depends on what you are aiming to achieve by adding to his diet.

I too have put my horses on Maxisoy for the first time this winter, and they do look fabulous. It has allowed me to cut right back on the amount of chaff I feed, I mix it in warm water so everyone has a warm dinner (not to mention keeping MY hands warm!), and it dampens the rest of their feed down nicely, so supplements don't sift out. Maxisoy is a good 'low GI' source of energy as well.

Instead of adding the full fat soy meal to my old Standie and TB's rations however, this year I looked at trying the HiForm Equisoy, until I found out that it is just human grade full fat debittered soy flour...so $12 a kilo from HiForm, or take a trip to the dark side and discover your local health food shop, and it's $2.60 a kilo!

They also do whey protein isolate, 'real' apple cider vinegar, rice bran oil and linseed meal, just to name a few!! The lady at our local bulk foods is great, and is happy to order me in bulk bags of the soy flour and isolate, as well as 20L drums of vinegar and oil, not to mention giving me a 10% discount for buying in bulk!! My oldies are charging through winter this year, no hassles (and they are 27yo and 30yo!). At that age it becomes a struggle just to get enough calories into the bucket for the size meal they will eat, and the full fat soy flour has really helped, as it is twice the fat of normal FFS for the same weight.

So if that hasn't confused you....think of it ibn levels of energy needs this way...

LOW - Maxisoy for bulk and 'cool fuel';
MEDIUM - Generic full fat soy for holding condition and helping with bloom, topline and energy levels; and
HIGH - HiForm Equisoy or human grade full fat debittered doy flour for topline and extra 'zing'!

Mystery~Bay
25-07-11, 10:05 AM
Awesome info thanks. 2006abbott was thinking that I was sure the health food shop would be cheaper! Thanksmfor the summary at the end

Harriette what a horrible reaction :( hope he has recovered now

Zampari He is on prydes easiresponse now so I will check ingredients and see if it has soy. In any case I'll introduce it slowly and monitor the response. As my instructor said, he may react but he may react to a number of things you just have to try them

Sorry about the "oomph" I was tying to be brief...he is muscling up well since in full work 3 months now) and starting to look less racehorsey, but the last few weeks with this cold (he is rugged) and I guess the pasture having little goodness (25 acres partially pasture improved, 2 horses, but still they seem to be searching for the good stuff) he just seems to be dropping off a little in condition and really running out of steam by the end of a lesson.

I tried increasing the hay but it was being left (??) and then the hard feed he's on Easiresponse, and it is getting expensive with the extra quantity for not much improvement. So yeh, I was thinking along the lines of some concentrated protein, and my instructor suggested soy.

I think I'll try the maxisoy pellets first and see how we go

QUARTERMILER
25-07-11, 10:31 AM
Awesome info thanks. 2006abbott was thinking that I was sure the health food shop would be cheaper! Thanksmfor the summary at the end

Harriette what a horrible reaction :( hope he has recovered now

Zampari He is on prydes easiresponse now so I will check ingredients and see if it has soy. In any case I'll introduce it slowly and monitor the response. As my instructor said, he may react but he may react to a number of things you just have to try them

Sorry about the "oomph" I was tying to be brief...he is muscling up well since in full work 3 months now) and starting to look less racehorsey, but the last few weeks with this cold (he is rugged) and I guess the pasture having little goodness (25 acres partially pasture improved, 2 horses, but still they seem to be searching for the good stuff) he just seems to be dropping off a little in condition and really running out of steam by the end of a lesson.

I tried increasing the hay but it was being left (??) and then the hard feed he's on Easiresponse, and it is getting expensive with the extra quantity for not much improvement. So yeh, I was thinking along the lines of some concentrated protein, and my instructor suggested soy.

I think I'll try the maxisoy pellets first and see how we go

Soyabean fed up to 500gms will do little to add "oomph". Soyabean meal is a protein supplement. There are two types of soya one being oil extracted which has a higher protein level somewhere around the 47% and the Full Fat soy which has a protein level of 45%.
Going by your post it appears your horse is lacking energy, if you are feeding recommended amounts of easi responce plus hay your horse should not be lacking in protein. You may need to consider adding a fat source such as ricebran which should improve(over time) his sustained energy levels.
If your horse is leaving his hay change to a better quality or type ie oaten lucerne mix as opposed to grass.
Feeding maxi soy pellets will not achieve the desired result.
A cheaper version of the diet you are currently feeding would be as follows
Extruded micronized or steam rolled barley, fullfat soy, ricebran(pref equijewel if minimal lucerne in diet) lucerne chaff plus good quality hay that he will eat in preference to grass.
Do not underestimate the value of good quality roughage ad lib it will do more for weight gain then anything elce and with minimal metabolic and physiological effects.

leesa
25-07-11, 11:13 AM
I agree with quartermiler - maxisoy fibre pellets aren't likely to give your horse a boost in energy.
They're just fibre pellets made from the hulls of the soybeans.
If your instructor suggested soy, they were possibly referring to full fat soy or soybean meal. ffs is granulated and oily. soybean meal is the same bean but ground finer and the oil has been removed. They're both high in protein and fed in small amounts.
What sort of climate are you in? the ffs can go rancid if you're in a hot/muggy area.

I actually feed both the maxisoy pellets and full fat soy.
Initially he got quite a bit of it (coming back in to work after a year off) but now after 7 months of eating xx quantity, I've halved it. Now he's fitter he seems to need less of it, as he's getting too reactive off that amount.

Have you considered an oil? It'll give more energy without the high protein, if the diet already has enough protein.

Mystery~Bay
25-07-11, 12:23 PM
Quatermiler the diet you suggest is exactly what he was on before I started Easiresponse (minus the FFS) I swapped in an effort to streamline my feeding regime in my extremely busy life (ie no mixing of feeds, and I just buy in 10 bags of easiresponse at a time rather than having different types that run out at different times, and then my feed store has run out of one or the other and I have to substitute, and also my non-horsey husband can feed up for me if I need). He has actually been doing better on Easiresponse condition wise, as I have only had him for less than 4 months and buitl him up from OTT then paddock condition. Also the coprice and equijewel was very expensive

I do understand the importance of roughage thanks, usually the pasture is enough but winter is taking it's toll. Haven't found any grass hay they will eat so at the moment its lucerne and I'm wary of feeding too much of that


Soyabean fed up to 500gms will do little to add "oomph". Soyabean meal is a protein supplement.

I thought that fizzy horses were usually caused by too much protein in their diet? That's why I thought a high pretein supplement would help with energy?? Is this not what "topline" and muscle building supplements are made from? I'll have to go back and read my book (Robert Kerrigan)

Leesa thanks...I see now that Maxisoy is only 14% protein. Maybe the low GI factor/slow release energy is what he needs though????

Now I'm even more confused. Guess I just need to experiment:confused: (which after 20 years of feeding basically barley and ricebran and supplements....is daunting to say the least)

Tablelander
25-07-11, 01:46 PM
I"m pretty sure that Easiresponse has soy in it. My TB is on it now and he also needed some more topline so I have added some Prydes 'build-on' and see how that goes as I wanted more topline/muscle as well as the condition but not too much more energy!

Good luck.

OakyPoke
25-07-11, 01:52 PM
I use Prydes Protein Pak.
Its full fat soy meal.
Was recommended to me by a friend that works with developing equine nutritional supplements and products. She's not employed by Prydes btw.
I was just bringing a horse back to health, needing to build topline and muscle. It works well for me and my situation (but watch out for those pony farts - they'll rip the roof off your stable!)

QUARTERMILER
25-07-11, 02:02 PM
Excess protein doesnt cause fizziness in horses, excess energy causes fizziness.
Two biscuits(without doing any calculations) of lucerne should be ok with the Easi Response. Feeding an extra biscuit of lucerne will provide more protein and more calories than 500gms soya or 1-2 kgs of maxisoy.
If you dont want to feed ricebran feed a vegetable oil one cup will add 8MJDE to the diet which is equivilant to around 700gms or so of Easi Respose.
Protein can be fed up to 1.5 of daily requirements without signifigant metabolic effects and more if a horse is resting or in very light work.

OakyPoke
25-07-11, 02:05 PM
I should add, I only feed one cup per day, and reason for the smelly bottom is....I feed it to aid hind gut digestion. Which it aids fermentation in the hind gut, and helps horsey put on condition by absorbing all the nutrients in the feed as opposed to the one cup being responsible for weight gain and topline etc.

QUARTERMILER
25-07-11, 02:31 PM
I should add, I only feed one cup per day, and reason for the smelly bottom is....I feed it to aid hind gut digestion. Which it aids fermentation in the hind gut, and helps horsey put on condition by absorbing all the nutrients in the feed as opposed to the one cup being responsible for weight gain and topline etc.
Say what???????????:confused:
Protein will not aid hindgut digestion or nutrient absorption. Certain yeast strains will increase hindgut digestion and utilization of protein from fiber sources.
Digestibilty of crude protein varies depending on the quality of the protein source ie lowest digestibility from say grass hay and highest form soya meal.

Mystery~Bay
25-07-11, 04:20 PM
Quatermiler I apppreciate your interest and am getting plenty of food for thought, you seem to be well read in the subject of horse nutrition

I was wondering if you could give me some references for
Excess protein doesnt cause fizziness in horses, excess energy causes fizziness.

I use "Practical Horse Nutrition" by Robert Kerrigan and I quote "High Ration protein levels are considered to be detrimental to athletic performance in that excess ration protein which is not used as dietary protein by the horse will either be converted into energy or excreted"

Thoughts?

OakyPoke
25-07-11, 04:28 PM
Say what???????????:confused:
Protein will not aid hindgut digestion or nutrient absorption. Certain yeast strains will increase hindgut digestion and utilization of protein from fiber sources.
Digestibilty of crude protein varies depending on the quality of the protein source ie lowest digestibility from say grass hay and highest form soya meal.

LIke I said, my friend is a scientist, has worked on many products and brands and that's how she explained it to me. It has nothing to do with the protein content I dont think. It could be how she explained it to me in 'simple' terms which was pretty much 'this will aid breakdown/digestion in his hindgut'. Whatever I say. It works.

QUARTERMILER
25-07-11, 06:01 PM
Quatermiler I apppreciate your interest and am getting plenty of food for thought, you seem to be well read in the subject of horse nutrition

I was wondering if you could give me some references for

I use "Practical Horse Nutrition" by Robert Kerrigan and I quote "High Ration protein levels are considered to be detrimental to athletic performance in that excess ration protein which is not used as dietary protein by the horse will either be converted into energy or excreted"

Thoughts?
That is correct high levels of protein are detrimental to athletic performance.
The conversion of protein to energy is an inefficient one and creates a signifigant amount of waste heat during the process. Waste heat increases the internal core temp of the horse and in hard working horses results in increased respiration and heart rates as well as sweat output during exercise.
Excess protein also increases ammonia concentration of the urine due to nitrogen being a by product of the conversion of protein to energy. This is of little concern to a healthy horse who has unrestricted access to water.
However horses who are on resticted roughage diets or who have their water withdrawn to reduce gut ballast before a race can suffer electolyte imbalances as a result.

Montego
25-07-11, 06:10 PM
I am always a bit bemused by reluctance to feed lucerne hay. I now feed it to all types of horses - fat ponies, OTT (over the top) OTT (off the track) TB, young warmblood mare still growing, etc.

It is really the best value feed because not one leaf will escape their notice, they eat every last bit. It is never wasted, and best of all no mouse or rat is bothered with it. Although some furry thing did tunnel in it, it didn't eat it. Even second quality lucerne hay is great, because the horses get lots of chewing time and less leaf.

I don't find it heats them up or makes them fizzy. It is easy to feed out, it comes apart in nice manageable biscuits, it doesn't fly around in the wind, and you can predict pretty well how long each bale will last - if you're really trying to stretch it.

Best of all my fatty boombah part Welsh looks terrific on it, not fat not thin. I am now led to believe it has lower sugar than some grass hays, so is good for when he's laminitis prone.

Sorry MB, this has nothing to do with your original question, I just needed to ramble on before going out into the cold again.