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MissTi
19-12-11, 11:09 AM
Just saw this news link. Hope it works.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8391903/25-dead-ponies-found-in-northern-nsw

What are people thinking????? Can't understand the thought process some people have.

diabla
19-12-11, 11:12 AM
that is gross. how can someone do that!

skymare
19-12-11, 11:51 AM
oh god that is horrible. i hate to wonder how the poor blighters died.

reveleus
19-12-11, 11:54 AM
Oh that is so sad :( I hope they find who owned them.

drfrankenstein
19-12-11, 12:00 PM
who knows?

accidentally contaminated feed/creek
old age/illness of owners - can't cope any more
old age/injury to horses - killed cos they're old/blind/crippled
money - ie someone is totally broke and can't even give them away.
mortgagee sale of property
mental illness
revenge
depression...


maybe someone simply didn't want them, lost their property and couldn't afford a vet to euthanase them all. As they say, a bullet doesn't cost much - not saying that's how they died.

However they came to be dumped there, let's just hope they were killed quickly.

StElmosFire
19-12-11, 12:01 PM
This sort of thing makes me want to commit GBH on the perpetrator of such a beastly crime. Poor little ponies. :mad:
God, I hate cruelty.....:mad:

drfrankenstein
19-12-11, 12:08 PM
how do you know it was cruel?


Perhaps some poor farmer who's flat bloody broke and lost his place, had advertised his horses for free for the last 3 months (with no takers) was absolutely devastated and had no idea what else to do?

Couldn't afford 25 shots of green dream so loaded them all up and took them out the back of wherever and put a bullet in each of them?


could've been heartbreaking and devastating rather than cruel.


Its just sad to assume and judge without knowing all the reasons.

ScottishSazzy
19-12-11, 12:15 PM
What I'd like to know is why a post mortem was not done...

StElmosFire
19-12-11, 12:28 PM
Any cruelty makes me wild. In this case, I agree we have no idea about the circumstances surrounding the ponies, but to have 25 of them dead in a huge heap smacks of "something not right". I grieve for them, no matter what their circumstances, because they weren't given a decent sort of send-off, burial or grave, the way much loved ponies deserve to have. My imagination runs riot, thinking of them being frightened (or worse) and being handled roughly or callously.

The whole thing is very, very sad. No matter what the mental, physical or financial state of the last human supposedly looking after them. Think of the treasured ponies owned by CH-ers, and then - a whole world away - these poor little blighters. Not nice.

cyrus
19-12-11, 12:33 PM
I agree suzie - just taking photos and then burial, seems a bit less that I would do for 5 ponies found dead, let alone 25.
I cannot imagine how they manages to get them on in and out of truck- and only one trip. there must have been more than one person involved.

I do agree though, life on the land can be tough, and vet bills could make human contemplate suicide IMHO... so I can see the reasoning Dr Frankenstein has.
BUT- again, if they all came from the one place- its about time horse breeding also had some controls placed on it... so that you do not end up with so many animals and an inability to care for them financially as well.
Some Animal collectors are a serious problem to animals as well IMHO.

acaciaalba
19-12-11, 12:45 PM
if they had been shot the police would have been able to work that out i reckon, and they would have said so.
there for i am with SEF and something stinks.
you dont just take a whole truck load of ponies and dump them in a secluded spot for no reason.
if you couldnt afford to feed them, and you shot them, you would bury them on your own place and no one would be none the wiser.
same if they died from whatever.
those poor animals, whatever they died of !
and yes, breeding needs to be controlled, right across the board,,,,,, including Tbs, before anyone pops that into the question.
poor little blighters. not a chance in life . there is no excuse for that sort of thing, just as there is no excuse for blokes who top their kids because he himself cant cope.
too many agencies and people to help, these days, for any of that rot to be going on. and when it does, its only an excuse, not a reason.
its always the innocent and helpless who suffer these dreadfull deeds.

drfrankenstein
19-12-11, 01:01 PM
maybe its the definition of cruel?

Cruel to me is being tortured and/or killed slowly, painfully etc - willfully causing pain to someone/something. A quick bullet in a brain or up under the jaw to end it all cleanly is not cruel. How do you think bushies in the outback do it? I've lived in places where its been 4 hours to a vet. If a horse breaks its leg or something, nobody waits. its just tch tch boom. That is not cruel. Okay - maybe these ones weren't shot - they might've been injected with something/poisoned/starved/Whatever - that's not my point.

What is cruel? dumping a dead body off a cliff? Not to me, no. It's dead. It might not be nice, but I get it happens. Round here, a good number of horses euthanased by vets end up at the local tip. I'm not sure when you are, but it is common. once a body is a body, to some, that it all it is - or they have no other option. They are on agistment or owners can't afford the huge amounts of money to have a horse buried somewhere nice. i have had friends horses buried at the tip, while they obviously didn't like it, their circumstances, or simply cost prevented other options. When I was out bush - you shoved wood on them and torched them where they fell. Some people probably feel horrified by that too. Dumping or burning a dead body is not cruel to me at all (and I would never do it). To me, it is only the "before" that could be cruel.

I love my horses and all my pets but to some folk they are a commodity. If it can't work, then so be it. Doesn't make it right but it happens in all forms of horsemanship - race horses, station horses, trotters etc.....

Suspicious? definitely - proof of cruelty - not at this point in time.

Djangoandjacana
19-12-11, 01:17 PM
I agree that cruelty is what happens to something alive and one certainly does wonder about he circumstances that led to the death of these ponies. Given what happened up in Queensland recently strange deaths of numbers can happen if they for instance ingest poison. Dumping the body seem odd, again you can only speculate. Was someone paid to take the bodies and then dumped them.

Burning, burying, dismembering and being eaten by vultures are all things that considered a appropriate even dignified way to dispose of human bodies, I am less concerned with what happened after death. It is hoe did death occur that perhaps doesn't bare thinking about.

LisaL
19-12-11, 01:17 PM
Back in the 80s drought farmers were paid $3 a head to shoot sheep (thanks John Elliot for being such a short sighted bastard)

Anyways there were farmers who took that option, some of my school mates were paid to shoot thousands of sheep and bulldoze them into holes.

The boys suffered depression for ages, no farmer likes shooting sound stock, but it was a better option than watching them starve, and the transport costs to market were more than the farmers could afford

the alternative may have been the knackers, and the costs of transporting them to the knackers may have been more than affordable, and if they were shot and dead before they hit the ground, as heart wrenching as it is, it's still better than neglect

Djangoandjacana
19-12-11, 01:21 PM
Highly unlikely they were shot I'd say

<<There were no obvious wounds on the animals or any other indication as to the cause of their death, police said.>>

LisaL
19-12-11, 01:29 PM
Agree with you there, and illegal dumping always pisses me off, I hate it when a park or bushland is dirtied by some cheap grot who doesn't want to pay tip fees.

They'll get fined big time for the dumping, no matter how the ponies died

Playnice
19-12-11, 01:56 PM
Unbelievable none of you have any idea what happened. You persume so much. Wait for the details and then form an opinion. I can not believe how judgemental ypu could be.

sunday
19-12-11, 01:59 PM
OMG that would have smelt extremely bad. I hope no-one lived anywhere near the area, yuk. Poor ponies, you can't help thinking that anyone with so little regard for their bodies after death probably had little regard for them when they were alive as well.

mokey
19-12-11, 02:12 PM
Unbelievable none of you have any idea what happened. You persume so much. Wait for the details and then form an opinion. I can not believe how judgemental ypu could be.

For Gods sake, we're a forum of horse lovers. Everyone has the right to be shocked and outraged, and discuss the incident among fellow horse lovers! If that means imagining scenarios, or sounding judgemental, so be it.

sunday
19-12-11, 02:14 PM
I stand by my opinion that it would have smelled bad.

HedgeWitch
19-12-11, 02:37 PM
I wonder if they will release the colours of the ponies if they hadn't decomposed too badly. The scarey thing is not knowing what killed them especially now we have so many strange illnesses popping their heads up.

I feel sorry for the people finding it and the ones having to dispose of the bodies, I agree with Sunday that would have smelt bad if they had been decomposing for a few days :(

Hedgy

drfrankenstein
19-12-11, 02:49 PM
i've worked in a hospital and seen PMs. Rubbing some Vicks underneath your nose hides a multitude of ummmm aromas.

Mind you - after a few days they would've been maggoty and revolting.

flight
19-12-11, 02:55 PM
I agree that you can't assume anything from that news link, but my gut instinct is to think it sounds dodgy. A poor farmer would put them through the sales or doggers, or shoot them and leave them on their own land. Mind you I know a few 'farmers' and they wouldn't have 25 ponies on their land LOL. It's for sheep or cows!! So maybe a breeder or collector??

Tip off to police?? Probably media hype, but it doesn't say someone just found the bodies accidently.
25 is a lot to become sick at once that you need to dump them. Neglect??

Dunno, but I'm cynical and think the worst.

acaciaalba
19-12-11, 03:04 PM
I stand by my opinion that it would have smelled bad.

and i stand by my opinion that something stinks !
decent farmers would not cart off a truckload of ponies and dump them over a cliff, even if they were in dire straits and had to shoot them.
if i am judgemental, so be it ! but i for one keep going over in my head what happened to those poor animals BEFORE they died. once dead, naught matters as they are no doubt in a better place now !

Playnice
19-12-11, 03:12 PM
Generally speaking I'm a cynic too. But of certainly like to know the facts before I start claiming cruelty. These sorts of things can be confronting for people and ot doesn't help them to have people conjuring up horrible images of poor little ponies.

Some of the sensible things discussed like threat to others through new disease.or extension of hendra etc.makes sense. The rest is ridiculous.

Btw, I adore horses but i also know that doesn't give me the right to sit in judgement of anyone. If. That's what horse lover means to you, that's great to know.

StElmosFire
19-12-11, 04:32 PM
For Gods sake, we're a forum of horse lovers. Everyone has the right to be shocked and outraged, and discuss the incident among fellow horse lovers! If that means imagining scenarios, or sounding judgemental, so be it.

Exactly!!!!
Ok, we'll move the word "cruelty" to one side, since it's getting people tetchy about its definition. Let's use the word "callous" instead. And we'll add "uncaring" for good measure. I am not spooked by death. I'd be quite happy to be a mortician, or work in a funeral director's, but everybody thinks I'm too old to start a new career.... but I digress - I know the body is just the shell, the outer casing of the spirit and the soul, but it's the lack of dignity offered these poor ponies. And to be dumped points to the fact that somebody is trying to hide something. Every creature in its death, deserves dignity and kindness, no matter how it goes, from a loved pet being PTS, to a steer at the abbatoirs. Their end should be as stress-free and pain-free as possible. I know that some animals have ghastly accidents a long way from vet help - I was a jillaroo out in western NSW for a few years, so I know what can happen. But you still try to act in a caring manner, even in an emergency. Tipping 25 ponies over a cliff, be they dead, dying or alive at the time, cannot, in any shape or form, come under the heading of normal or nice behaviour! :mad:

acaciaalba
19-12-11, 05:09 PM
Yep ! what she said ! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ !

Playnice
19-12-11, 06:22 PM
StElmosFire - I in fact agree with everything said in your post above. However, you are discussing the facts as they have been stated. You are outraged (justifiably) with how the bodies/ponies have been disposed of. As am I.

The issue I have (and maybe I wasn't clear) was the judgement placed on a fictional owner, the supposed cruelty that these animals "must" have suffered prior to their "cruel" deaths.

This subject is across a number of forums, and so many people have created fictional stories and all include 1 terrible, awful cruel and horrendous human being. No body knows what has happened. It would be nice if people would deal with the facts that we know. I'm not sure what "imagining scenarios" (in this situation) does for anyone except to make an awful human act 10 times worse. What good daoes that do???

thejoth
19-12-11, 06:39 PM
seems obvious that 25 dead ponies at the bottom of a cliff, with no sign of how they died, stood at the top in a very different state!

now imagine pushing one horse off a cliff, now do that 25 times.

that is weird stuff indeed.

Bad Bones
19-12-11, 06:55 PM
Agree with thejoth. Very weird.....

As soon as I saw this on the news something tickled the back of my mind -
Wasn't there a bunch of ponies belonging to a deceased estate up that way needing rescuing a while back?

Can't remember the exact details (there seem to be so many of these sorts of stories these days).

But whatever - Ponies must have been either hunted out the back of a truck over the cliff alive (but there were no 'obvious injuries'?) or arrived there in a 'tipper' truck & were tipped over that way.
Can't imagine anyone wanting to hang around for the time required to push each one over individually.
They'd surely be afraid of being caught in the act wouldn't they?

BB

acaciaalba
19-12-11, 07:02 PM
and if 25 ponies died elsewhere,,,,all at once mind you,,, how much time and effort to get them all onto a truck,,,,piled up on top of each other,,,,,and take them to the cliff ??
25 ponies piled onto a normal size horse truck,,, unless a semi,,,they would be rail high .
thats a lot of hard work for an innocent man !

Playnice
19-12-11, 07:21 PM
Do you not think that 25 horses pushed off a cliff would have some fairly obivious outward signs?????????????????????????????????????? Police report no obvious injuries. FACT.

Point proven I think.

Lin2
19-12-11, 07:22 PM
seems obvious that 25 dead ponies at the bottom of a cliff, with no sign of how they died, stood at the top in a very different state!

now imagine pushing one horse off a cliff, now do that 25 times.

that is weird stuff indeed.

It's weird and suspicious indeed, but the article only says the bodies were found near a cliff. It does not say the bodies were thrown off the cliff at all.

acaciaalba
19-12-11, 07:36 PM
weird yes.
how did they get there ?
25 bodies of ANYTHING dont just turn up in any spot, anywhere, normally.
and why would the police be involved if its all perfectly innocent ?
dont think you have proven any point at all, playnice !
no OBVIOUS injuries,,,in decomposing bodies ?
proves what ????

Playnice
19-12-11, 08:02 PM
Weird, probably not the word I would use. Disgraceful, disgusting and unacceptable are much further up my list.

I don't know how they got there, I don't know why they are there. When these facts are revealed then I'll form an oppinion about that.

The police would be involved because a) they got the tip and b) dumping is illegal and in order to lay criminal charges it needs to be investigated by the police.

The theme of all my posts has bee that I see no value on passing judgement on fictional characters, nor can I see the good in creating images based on presumptions and guess work. All this sort of thing does is conjures up confronting, upsetting and unneccesary images for people who truly care about the animals.

Posts 29 and 30 prove my point (of fabricated stories) perfectly. Three facts we have are that the ponies were found near a cliff (no where that I can find does it say that they were at the bottom of it (please correct me if I'm wrong), secondly, it states there were no obvious injuries (should you push/tip 25 ponies of a cliff, the ponies would likely (at least one) have grazes, broken legs, broken necks all of which would be obvious injuries because the third fact we have is that the ponies were in early stages of decomposition. I concede that abrasions my be difficult to find but breaks in bones, particulary horses legs are evident well into decomposition. So the theory that they were pushed of the cliff doesn't fit the facts we have.

I am shocked and disgusted like everyone else, I've seen some terrible things so I'm not easily upset by the sugested possibilities, I even have my own theories, however I do respect the fact that it may cause others distress. I don't think it unreasonable that people discuss the facts at hand.

Anubis
19-12-11, 08:02 PM
Radio said they were unlikely to be wild; also that Hendra cannot be ruled out.

Cannot presume cruelty in life but deeply saddened by the disrespect shown the little guys and as Sunday suggested, any neighbours.

Also agree with Joth.

k123
19-12-11, 08:04 PM
no obvious injuries = not shot, necks not cut, no bones protruding from skin or at angles to suggest broken, not starving, nothing to suggest cause of death.

25 euth'd horses perhaps. Which begs the question why weren't they disposed of properly. Once that question is raised, other nefarious circumstances may get considered eg neurological disease etc that took out a herd. Possibilities of hendra, whatever dropped those horses in qld etc

Which of course then raises if subsequent disposal was a good idea. Does green dream second kill? If neurological, could be a bit scary not knowing what it is, but you'd hope tests were run to determine cause of death.

happy horses
19-12-11, 08:12 PM
I agree suzie - just taking photos and then burial, seems a bit less that I would do for 5 ponies found dead, let alone 25.
I cannot imagine how they manages to get them on in and out of truck- and only one trip. there must have been more than one person involved.

I do agree though, life on the land can be tough, and vet bills could make human contemplate suicide IMHO... so I can see the reasoning Dr Frankenstein has.
BUT- again, if they all came from the one place- its about time horse breeding also had some controls placed on it... so that you do not end up with so many animals and an inability to care for them financially as well.
Some Animal collectors are a serious problem to animals as well IMHO.

I agree with you 100% breeding of all animals should be controlled although it is some times hard to enforce people hide them away out of sight.But if there was a law to enforce the breeding of them it may make some think twice.

Playnice
19-12-11, 08:25 PM
Some states regulate ownership of entire dogs (as best they can) regulation of stallion ownership may assist. Regulation would would incur fees, fees would push service fees up, increased cost may limit availability. Increased cost of progeny may cause a second thought.

Sad to think that breeding your mare would be controlled by your wealth but it may serve to reduce numbers. (Not that I believe that just because you have money, you are responsible by default).

Gelding and chemical sterilsation enforced by law for all rescue horses/recovered brumbies?? Starts to go down an ethically grey path???

Enforced temprement testing for any Stallion/Broodmare (of any breed including TB). Would be easier to do in closed books like TBs. Failed test, stud book recorded, rejected from breeding added to papers.

All possible solutions.

Apologies for deviating from subject,

mindari
19-12-11, 08:31 PM
Some states regulate ownership of entire dogs (as best they can) regulation of stallion ownership may assist. Regulation would would incur fees, fees would push service fees up, increased cost may limit availability. Increased cost of progeny may cause a second thought.

Sad to think that breeding your mare would be controlled by your wealth but it may serve to reduce numbers. (Not that I believe that just because you have money, you are responsible by default).

Gelding and chemical sterilsation enforced by law for all rescue horses/recovered brumbies?? Starts to go down an ethically grey path???

Enforced temprement testing for any Stallion/Broodmare (of any breed including TB). Would be easier to do in closed books like TBs. Failed test, stud book recorded, rejected from breeding added to papers.

All possible solutions.

Apologies for deviating from subject,

:D considering the TB industry has only selection basis. speed.
temprement will never be on the agenda, some of the worst in that respect were leading sires. just to name one St Simon :p

Playnice
19-12-11, 08:36 PM
TB industry gave me the idea in the first place - Glean Machine and progeny were horrendous.

If it was law across the board then TB industry wouldn't have a choice (Pie in the sky type dreaming I know)

mindari
19-12-11, 08:40 PM
Some states regulate ownership of entire dogs (as best they can) regulation of stallion ownership may assist. Regulation would would incur fees, fees would push service fees up, increased cost may limit availability. Increased cost of progeny may cause a second thought.

Sad to think that breeding your mare would be controlled by your wealth but it may serve to reduce numbers. (Not that I believe that just because you have money, you are responsible by default).

Gelding and chemical sterilsation enforced by law for all rescue horses/recovered brumbies?? Starts to go down an ethically grey path???

Enforced temprement testing for any Stallion/Broodmare (of any breed including TB). Would be easier to do in closed books like TBs. Failed test, stud book recorded, rejected from breeding added to papers.

All possible solutions.

Apologies for deviating from subject,

honestly.?

only the registred breeders are tracable. soo whats happening? dont be too sprised if in 10 years the only dog you can find is a mutley born of parents the government bodies didnt know existed.

just a look at the membership numbers over the past 15 yrs of the canine councils is going one way only....n its all down hill.

the day is comming the only dogs u can find will be like the german coolie kept and loved for what they are and never on a register

nearly forgot, better to be politicaly correct.
than mention what is not

Playnice
19-12-11, 09:35 PM
repeat of post above - sorry

Playnice
19-12-11, 10:02 PM
nearly forgot, better to be politicaly correct.
than mention what is not[/QUOTE]

I don't follow???

fredkelpie
19-12-11, 10:12 PM
My turn. “Pot callin the kettle black”. A lot of you get on here sproking and saying “if they can’t look after their horses then give them away or have them PTS”. Now who’s to say these ponies weren’t an assortment of rigs, stallions, older unhandled ponies.

I would rather have them PTS then have go though the doggers or some unknowledgeable family taking them because they look so cute and have the pony rot in a paddock being foundered or neglected or worse end up killing some little kid.

If they have started to decompose its quite possible you won’t find a clear entry hole of the bullet, these ponies may have been shot humanly, front end loaded onto a tipper, and then stupidly dumped near Glen Innes, maybe by the owner or by a contractor.

I think it’s a shame they were not buried but it’s not cruel to shot an animal but it is cruel to have a very unsuitable pony in the wrong hands.

I would like to know the facts before drawing my concussion.

Shall now crawl back under my rock.


“Heinz variety, used for everything”

mindari
19-12-11, 10:59 PM
nearly forgot, better to be politicaly correct.
than mention what is not

I don't follow???[/QUOTE]

isnt this thread going the way of stop breeding and breeders and the problem will go away?

from what ive seen when that gets going its not safe to disagree.

or your politically incorrect.

isnt it an old saying the camel was designed by a committee?

since when were politicians and animal libbers the people who created such great animals as our dressage, showjumping campdrafting etc champions.

ditto for dogs.

yet here it is being demanded these people control who can or cannot?

the result will be either extinction or camels :D

mindari
19-12-11, 11:14 PM
just WHO is going to be the ONE who decides who can or cannot be allowed to actually breed anything for the next generation?

will the decision be based on ability to pay?

will the decision be based on ability to assess possible parents and get the highest percentage of good results?

the second is impossible to assess without past performance. soo if you cant prove you have the ability?

is the only ones who get the nod on the ability to pay?

an awful lot of the best didnt come from the wealthiest end of town, they bought the results.

it isnt like making a cake. the ingredients frequently dont repeat the same result... is there going to be laws that genetic variation be outlawed?

n how can that be implemented?

how many of you have identical brothers and sisters that are not genetically identical? (as in identical twins) if you dont have identical looking siblings do you really think making it a law will actually make your parents produce less variation in appearance in their children?

if i cant happen with your parent how on earth do so many people think laws can make good breeders and eliminate bad ones?

theres a lot of assumptions and little genetics in these discussions.

what makes the best breeders is the ability to assess the progeny and keep the best AND ELIMINATE the imperfects from the gene pool. there is a word for it. although its getting terribly politically incorrect. its called CULLED.

Culled from the breed, culled from being kept. culled as in sent to slaughter. if it is inferior and/or unsound. it is put down, not kept as a pet until the day it dies. breeders only have so much room to keep the next generation. they cant keep them all. only the best stay, in the case of cattle and sheep its off to the sales and the chop.

we all love horses or we wouldnt be on this forum. but some really do need to get a grip. there are some that do have soundness and or mental issues that make them unsound or dangerous and no one should keep them forever and a day if they are in pain or will put someone in pain or worse. just because its a horse doesnt mean they are all with more right to stay regardless than any cow, sheep or goat with the same problem.
runaway was a nit, she would run her calves till they got sunstroke trying to keep up.
why should she be kept and feed wasted on a nit instead of some sensible cow or substitute that for horse.

now im being seriously politically incorrect.... back to rock.

night all

Tb Lover
19-12-11, 11:16 PM
The whole situation smells ........ in my opinion.
25 to begin with ........... 25 ?????????? Come on!!!
Iffffffffffff - they were (the owner down and out in that area) ........ normally - bullet shot and burn the carcas (s).
Something Smells ......... let alone STINK!!!

mindari
20-12-11, 08:03 AM
yes TBL but there is just so many possible scenarios Im waiting to learn more .

if someone has put them down and hired someone to dispose of the bodies then the driver decided to save the tip fees and thought hey this is away from sight and dumped them.

certainly seen enough trucks dumping on vacant blocks to know it happens often enough

no one knows so assuming so much is just dreaming of possible scenarios n some here are assuming their thoughts are then facts and even suggesting new laws

for goodness sake

i know a case where the owner shot 7 of their horses for no better reason than yes short of feed and wouldnt sell because they didnt want anyone the chance to get their bloodlines. as if anyone would know what the so called precious "blood" was if they were simply sold on with no history given?

i thought this thinking cruel and called to learn that anyone can shoot or put down their horses as long as its done humanely. the horse does not have to be sick its quite legal for an owner to kill their stock if they so choose.
that is apparently the law, so if the owner chose to do this it is legal.

if they got into something and thats not entirely impossible and died, that too does not constitue cruelty, that constituts awful tragedy.

i know of a case of three horses dying after being yarded overnight waiting for the carrier to arrive. feed and water in the yard. three seperate occasions. the owner has never discovered the cause of death.
the only conclusion possible is there is something the horses licked or found that is deadly but nothing has been found. the only conclusion being never use that yard again.

Bad Bones
20-12-11, 08:20 AM
Playnice (totally inappropriate name - I think)
My first comment regarding pushing them out of a truck alive was qualified by the comment (in brackets) that there were no obvious signs of injuries, so obviously that wasn't the case. That was probably a facetious comment really.

The 2nd scenario is much more likely to have happened. Like FK said. Dead ponies loaded onto tipper & dumped. Whether it was 'over' the cliff or at the bottom of the cliff or near the cliff, doesn't really matter. Still would have had to happen the same way. Tip truck tipping dead ponies out.
Can't imagine anyone trying to do it any other way. Would take to long and they would have to be be scared of getting caught in the act. Tip truck is the best & quickest for a 'clean' getaway.

Oh and the culprit is not a 'fictitious/fictional character'.

It was a real person that dumped those bodies.

C

treacle
20-12-11, 08:35 AM
a couple of yanks i know have a "boneyard", a paddock where they drag a critters body in and just let nature take it's course: in some countries, this is how human carcasses are dealt with (in Tibet it's called a sky burial)

mindari
20-12-11, 09:41 AM
a couple of yanks i know have a "boneyard", a paddock where they drag a critters body in and just let nature take it's course: in some countries, this is how human carcasses are dealt with (in Tibet it's called a sky burial)

same somewhere in india. left for the vultures there was a documentary on cultures and different ways of disposing of the dead

mokey
20-12-11, 10:59 AM
The "Dirty Jobs" TV series showed the road kill composting process (http://cwmi.css.cornell.edu/roadkillfs.pdf). From deer to compost + bones in 4-6 months.

Diana
20-12-11, 11:05 AM
a couple of yanks i know have a "boneyard", a paddock where they drag a critters body in and just let nature take it's course: in some countries, this is how human carcasses are dealt with (in Tibet it's called a sky burial)

:o um...on mum & dad's farm there's a bush that dad used to put sheep who had died or he'd had to shoot, rather than burying them I guess.

It was probably no more than 5km away but we never smelled the rotting carcasses - in saying that, there were probably no more than 5 rotting bodies at one time...

Playnice
20-12-11, 11:46 AM
N


Playnice (totally inappropriate name - I think)
My first comment regarding pushing them out of a truck alive was qualified by the comment (in brackets) that there were no obvious signs of injuries, so obviously that wasn't the case. That was probably a facetious comment really.

The 2nd scenario is much more likely to have happened. Like FK said. Dead ponies loaded onto tipper & dumped. Whether it was 'over' the cliff or at the bottom of the cliff or near the cliff, doesn't really matter. Still would have had to happen the same way. Tip truck tipping dead ponies out.
Can't imagine anyone trying to do it any other way. Would take to long and they would have to be be scared of getting caught in the act. Tip truck is the best & quickest for a 'clean' getaway.

Oh and the culprit is not a 'fictitious/fictional character'.

It was a real person that dumped those bodies.

C

BB I'm sorry if ive offended you in anyway I wasn't referencing your post at all. I'm not sure where exactly I havent played nice, unless you refer to a difference of opinion.

I agree that it was a real person never said it wasnt, however do you have more info than me? Someone on here must because from what I have read its apparent that people believe the ponies came from the one property, owned by the same person who obviously didnt care for them throughout there life because they didn't show the bodies the same level of respect that we would expect horse lovers would. That was the fiction I was referring to.

There others who have exactly the same response as I do. Id like to wait for all the details before forming opinions on fiction.

acaciaalba
20-12-11, 01:29 PM
anyway you care to look at this, its wrong !
be it owner, tip truck driver or little green man from mars !
SOMEONE did the wrong thing.
why not bury or burn them on your own property ? if you put them down for whatever reason ?
why not call the knackers to remove the bodies if they all died at once ? ( ???) and you had no place to burn or bury ? and nothing shonky had taken place ?
if the tipper driver didnt want to pay tip fees, why wouldnt he take them to the knackery ? why risk dumping ? big fines for dumping .
22 in one heap. 3 in another heap 10 mtrs away.
whatever slant you put on it, it still stinks !

drfrankenstein
20-12-11, 02:27 PM
if they were euthanased by the green dream - no knackery will take them.

LisaL
20-12-11, 02:44 PM
'twas the week before Christmas
And all the horsey peeps were bored
The horses were on sabbatical
And the peeps had nuthin to do
So they sat on their fav forums
And played super sleuths

Until the illegal dumping people are found, who knows

A recent discussion with friends about where to build a new stable block, we love that location but that's where previous owners used to bury their horses. Hope they are deep enough that we can put the foundations in and not have to dig them up.

Varying states of decomposition could also be that developers have dug up the previous owners pet cemetery and illegally dumped the lightweight carcasses rather than pay tip fees. Not all strange stories involve cruelty and mayhem:-)

Bad Bones
20-12-11, 04:47 PM
PN Sorry - I apologise for that comment. I was feeling 'snippy'.

As to what happen as far as I am concerned it's all just conjecture and I'm not particularly concerned where the ponies came from, whether they all came from the one place, or even how they were killed.

What I do know for a fact is that the person/s involved have committed a criminal act dumping the bodies.
Enviromental pollution/damage is no small thing as far as I am concerned. Particularly if the dump site was anywhere near a water course.

At the very least aside of the smell the carcasses would have attracted all manner of vermin, including wild dogs which are in plague numbers on the tablelands.

And I still can't shake this niggle at the back of my mind about those ponies that needed rescuing up there somewhere a while back. That maybe there's a connection......
Can't even think where to look it up as I can't remember where I saw it.

BB

acaciaalba
20-12-11, 05:01 PM
BB, i do remember about ponies being rescued. some,,or most i think,,came to near here . DJ probably knows more than i do about them, but i dont think they came from north.
the ones i remember were from an old bloke who let his ponies breed with their rellies etc,,,and finally some rescue people stepped in. ( basically. cant remember all the details. )
thats the only ones i can think of ? stuff was posted on here about them.
maybe some other CHers can think of others ?

that entered my mind too. what if they are near a watercourse ? that alone is criminal to me. never mind the rest of it.
and remember when they aerial shot the brumbies in Guy Fawkes ? the vermin all those bodies attracted was just disgusting ! not just the wild dingos and crossbreds but the foxes and pigs. heaven help any one around there with livestock.

Bad Bones
20-12-11, 05:21 PM
AA the ones I'm thinking of were up on the tablelands. Deceased estate I think. Owner/breeder died with no heirs. Was about 30 ponies I think - maybe welsh or australian?

Must have been some local media that I saw it in but can't think where or how long ago it was. Might be a year or more.

Could very well be no connection at all.

As to knackeries - the nearest one to Glen are one in Brisbane area (can't remember exactly where) and the other would be Willow Tree (but I'm not sure if it does for pet food - I know they do horses for human consumption there (export)).
So quite a drive (cost of fuel) to get to either of them. It also may well be that none of the municiple tips on the tablelands would take that many dead animals to bury at once. Although you would think that if they had tried that avenue then someone would have an idea of who dumped the carcasses.

We'll just have to wait & see now how closely the cops pursue this. Depends on the EPA I guess.

BB

acaciaalba
20-12-11, 05:28 PM
i had NO IDEA there was a knackery at Willow Tree ! and i have quite a bit of connection in the Quirindi/Tamworth/Guyra area too ! live and learn !
that surprised me for sure !
yes, BB, what you are saying is now ringing bells !
well, i sure hope we find out the true story !

Think1st
20-12-11, 05:32 PM
if they were euthanased by the green dream - no knackery will take them.

If they were euthanased with green dream they were also a danger to any native animal that fed on the carcasses. When we had our old boy pts (and the backhoe couldn't come 'til the next day) the vet made a point of telling us to cover his body securely and tie up any domestic dogs because they could become ill if they ate body parts or blood.

Leaving aside any conjecture about what happened to the ponies before death, dumping the bodies in that way was totally wrong.

LindaH
20-12-11, 10:21 PM
Some more info I found:
http://www.chrisroubis.com/2011/12/mystery-of-25-dead-horses-in-bush-near-glen-innes/

pplayer
21-12-11, 08:32 AM
TB industry gave me the idea in the first place - Glean Machine and progeny were horrendous.

If it was law across the board then TB industry wouldn't have a choice (Pie in the sky type dreaming I know)

Off topic, but interesting.......we had a city winning Glean Machine mare in the 90s and she had the most charming nature a horse could have!

Bats_79
21-12-11, 11:28 AM
Some more info I found:
http://www.chrisroubis.com/2011/12/mystery-of-25-dead-horses-in-bush-near-glen-innes/


That's just hearsay also. Until there is an official report - and there is ALWAYS a cause of death.

thesaddleclub101
21-12-11, 11:39 AM
and there is ALWAYS a cause of death.

That's completely incorrect. I'm handling an article at the moment with autopsy reports for a range of animals whose deaths are listed as "unknown" and have stumped scientific examiners.

happy horses
21-12-11, 12:20 PM
A friend had an Autopsy and blood tests tissue samples done on a foal that died recently and nothing showed up a cause of death in any of these tests. So they are still at a loss, and greatly out of pocket.

sharyn
21-12-11, 01:01 PM
That is bit of a bold call there Saddleclub! :D

Just because the cause of death has the researchers stumped, doesn't mean that there was not a cause of death. Obviously there was, because the animals are dead!

I hope they get to the bottom of this whodunnit?. It makes you wonder why someone would just dump them like that? I don't think there would be a problem with a tip taking that number of animals. I remember there was a cattle truck rolled near here a few years back, and the dead ones (a lot) were all taken to the dump. Maybe it was the cost of dumping them. Who knows? I guess we can speculate all we like, but someone out there knows the truth. Hopefully it will come out eventually.

thesaddleclub101
21-12-11, 02:29 PM
Of course there was a cause for the deaths - what I meant was that there is not always a cause of death identified on a postmortem report.

treacle
21-12-11, 03:24 PM
such a journo.. twisting their words *nudge* ; )

cobie
22-12-11, 11:47 PM
Latest news:

http://www.news.com.au/national/man-to-be-charged-over-deaths-of-25-ponies/story-e6frfkvr-1226228908310

"A police investigation has concluded that 35 ponies were transported by a removalist truck, loaded in the Kingstown District to head to the north coast.

It is believed the truck had inadequate ventilation which caused to the ponies death."


What an awful way to go.... :(

gg_vice
23-12-11, 12:07 AM
What a moron!

reveleus
23-12-11, 12:32 AM
There really is no cure for stupidity. :( Sad the poor ponies had to pay for it.

Bats_79
23-12-11, 12:45 AM
There is ALWAYS a cause of death. It might not be financially viable to find out what it was but it is there.

In this case they would have found out if it was a person by doing an autopsy regardless of how "decomposed" the body way.

But now they have the answer. Considering that the horses all died of the same cause the comment "various stages of decomposition" is interesting.

Hopefully the ponies didn't suffer too much during that horrible trip.

NikJ
23-12-11, 12:56 AM
I have read a lot of coronial reports and many reasons or explanations of the deaths of people are never confirmed. So neurcropsy (prob spelt wrong but autopsy is human related in latin) of animals wont ever guarantee an explanation other than the fact that the animal is dead.

Further, police at the scene are seeing a lot of dead animals in various stages of decomposition and I would say burial would have been the priority.

half_pass
23-12-11, 01:32 AM
Some more info I found:
http://www.chrisroubis.com/2011/12/mystery-of-25-dead-horses-in-bush-near-glen-innes/

That looks like a really reputable site. With other stories listed as:

Adolf Hitler died of old age
AIDS created by USA
Microchips in the Swine Flu Vaccine

shaiarabs
23-12-11, 01:57 AM
more reputable sources...

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/man-to-be-charged-over-deaths-of-25-ponies/story-e6freooo-1226228954248

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-23/man-to-face-court-over-dumped-dead-ponies/3744898/?site=melbourne

Bad Bones
23-12-11, 07:44 AM
So now we know.
Unfortunately the person responsible will probably get away with a slap on the wrist.

And those poor ponies - well suffocation in that way is a horrendous way to die.
Can't describe the agony those little horses would have suffered.

I just want to cry.

BB

cyrus
23-12-11, 08:18 AM
:( What some people do to animals still never ceases to amaze me. The 3 found 10m away in one report, makes me wonder if they were not even dead at the point of being dumped. let alone why anyone would have that many horses in truck, where they were headed etc.
Lets hope for KARMA- for all those who played a role in the ponies death.

ouch25
23-12-11, 08:34 AM
I am utterly appaualed at the stupidity of some people..... I wonder where they were going to as well?
I agree with BadBones... all he will get is a fine most likely. Our laws and punishments for animal neglet/abuse are so frustraiting.

mindari
23-12-11, 08:47 AM
was it 7 pages of speculation and no one came within cooee of the truth?

fact is definately stranger than fiction.

the stupidity of the human race just defies belief, not to realise a furniture van is for........furniture, it doesnt need to breathe. obviously never heard of the illegal immigrants who died exactly the same way when smuggled in the same way. no wonder they were quiet at the border checks.

this guy isnt the only one to make the same mistake sadly

StElmosFire
23-12-11, 08:47 AM
People like this wicked, evil person, who commit atrocities on animals invariably get off with the proverbial slap on the wrist. All they have to do is plead ignorance or mental illness, and they get away with murder. In this case, literally. Mental illness or mental instability seems to be the most wonderful alibi for doing anything these days. If you're mentally ill, you aren't held responsible. He should be made to suffer for what those poor little ponies went through. This makes me absolutely sick - sick to the stomach, and sick in my heart.... to think anybody would do something like this person has done. It's one of the most upsetting things I've read in a very long time.

wuffer
23-12-11, 09:33 AM
somehow i prefered the concept of the horses being PTS then dumped to the real story.
Such a waste.

live2ride
23-12-11, 09:36 AM
Pottsville is a very small place... he may find himself shunned by the community. Surely there can be no plea of ignorance.. ventillation/ air is a basic requirement for life!!! But agree, these people get off with a slap on the wrist...

Charlypops
23-12-11, 09:52 AM
How utterly sad, those poor ponies. What a stupid di**head. I am with the other posters, I am stunned by the stupidity of some people.

Stocky
23-12-11, 10:59 AM
Everyday the stupidity and cruelness of people surprises me just that little bit more.

Those poor ponies, what a terrible way to die.

mindari
23-12-11, 11:02 AM
i am saddened by no one seems to realise this horror could be accidental.

no one would deliberately do what has happend. people do stupid things when they panic.

gee people do awful things deliberately too, look at the waste contractor caught deliberately dumping toxic waste into a stream? but...... we dont know...we shouldnt judge. you are making yourselve pretty stressed over assumptions arent you?

not that long ago a friend rang frantic, all their half grown chicks had died and beside themselves with grief.

went to look. they had them inside for safety as there are foxes aplenty. they were now big enough they began jumping out of their night box and ran round the house so she put a sheet over the box.

they had all soffocated. i realised it. but how do u tell a grieving owner they just killed their pets?
it is a horrible call. tried to explain as gently as i could sheets dont allow enought air transfer.

when the truth dawned she was inconsolable.

gee too many here presume too much. how could anyone assume anyone would put 35 ponies in a van to transport them from a to b intending them to die as they did?

like the sheet tragedy accidents do happen, people make mistakes, gee look at the road deaths yearly. same result, misjudgments . there are heaps of people with horses that havent a clue about them, we see it here often enough with those seeking help.

we dont know the full true story, lets stop making ourselves ill making snap judgements.

drfrankenstein
23-12-11, 11:20 AM
and so say all of me!

Dragoness
23-12-11, 11:35 AM
You know what Mindari, I came within a cooee of the truth, but didnt want to post what I thought on here as it was too horrible to think about and I didnt really think that anyone would be that horrible (though I did discuss it with my OH) I basically thought it sounded like they were herded on to a truck and left until they all died, then they were dumped (not taking them anywhere, just an easy way of killing them)

Makes me sick to think how close I was to the truth. :(

Charlypops
23-12-11, 11:49 AM
Judgemental or not. My first thought when hearing this is that the man was to stingy to pay for a transport company to move all the horses so perhaps thought hiring a removal truck for the day might be a cheaper option.

I had not thought he had deliberately killed them, but just thought he was probably a cheap idiot.

Sad none the less.

Djangoandjacana
23-12-11, 12:04 PM
I heard this on the radio coming back from the supermarket. What an absolute idiot. My first thought wasn't that it was done deliberately though. Dragoness's scenario would have been deliberate.Just leave them there, out of sight out of mind to die. This sounds like some absolute idiot cheapskate.

There are still lots of questions. More speculation I know. Originally I thought perhaps it as someone who had been paid to dispose of the bodies who just dumped them. Now do we know if this person was the owner or is there some other idiot who chose the cheapest quote involved.

Why were so many being transported? Someone relocating?

Were they minis? Would have been fairly small to get that many in a do it yourself removalist truck that you only need a car license for.

Those poor poor animals.

Playnice
23-12-11, 12:11 PM
Not the first time horses have been moved in moving trucks. It happened a lot during EI. I wonder how.many died then that we never heard about.

MMC
23-12-11, 12:22 PM
Not the first time horses have been moved in moving trucks. It happened a lot during EI. I wonder how.many died then that we never heard about.

I was thinking that too. Wasn't there a guy during EI that was caught with a horse in a refrigerated truck. No ventilation there.

Stocky
23-12-11, 12:34 PM
Deliberate or not, the death of 25 ponies in a truck and abandoning the rest of them there to die is cruel and the person responsible deserves to be punished for neglecting those ponies in their duty of care.

Accidents do happen, but dumping the bodies and leaving the ones still alive there - that is no accident.

Bats_79
23-12-11, 01:01 PM
i am saddened by no one seems to realise this horror could be accidental.

no one would deliberately do what has happend. people do stupid things when they panic.

gee people do awful things deliberately too, look at the waste contractor caught deliberately dumping toxic waste into a stream? but...... we dont know...we shouldnt judge. you are making yourselve pretty stressed over assumptions arent you?

not that long ago a friend rang frantic, all their half grown chicks had died and beside themselves with grief.

went to look. they had them inside for safety as there are foxes aplenty. they were now big enough they began jumping out of their night box and ran round the house so she put a sheet over the box.

they had all soffocated. i realised it. but how do u tell a grieving owner they just killed their pets?
it is a horrible call. tried to explain as gently as i could sheets dont allow enought air transfer.

when the truth dawned she was inconsolable.

gee too many here presume too much. how could anyone assume anyone would put 35 ponies in a van to transport them from a to b intending them to die as they did?

like the sheet tragedy accidents do happen, people make mistakes, gee look at the road deaths yearly. same result, misjudgments . there are heaps of people with horses that havent a clue about them, we see it here often enough with those seeking help.

we dont know the full true story, lets stop making ourselves ill making snap judgements.

Absolutely!

If you look at a horse truck or a modern float going by you could (if you weren't very intelligent) assume that horses didn't need high quality ventilation.

Maybe he thought he was doing the ponies a favour keeping them out of the wind and sun when he moved them. Considering the filthy comments I got from some people when I moved mares from Melbourne to Port Macquarie in a cattle truck (not one of them got dehydrated or travel sick) and how it was cruel not to have them tied up in horse trucks, the ignorance that so called knowledgable people have when it comes to horse transport can be deadly.

I see NO reason to brand this person "wicked" and "evil" until proven that it was a deliberate form of euthanasia. What the heck do you call some one who systematically abuses their wife and children if you call someone who accidentally kills ponies this?

Playnice
23-12-11, 02:03 PM
E
Deliberate or not, the death of 25 ponies in a truck and abandoning the rest of them there to die is cruel and the person responsible deserves to be punished for neglecting those ponies in their duty of care.

Accidents do happen, but dumping the bodies and leaving the ones still alive there - that is no accident.

Not an attack but where does it say he left live animals. I note someone speculated the three in the other pile probably weren't dead, but its a bit weird that all 3 survivors would lie down in a saperate pile together.

Was there more to the story.

acaciaalba
23-12-11, 04:35 PM
E

Not an attack but where does it say he left live animals. I note someone speculated the three in the other pile probably weren't dead, but its a bit weird that all 3 survivors would lie down in a saperate pile together.

Was there more to the story.

my evil mind tells me : OH YES there WILL be more to the story !!
no one could be that dumb ! could they ?
how would you fit that many ponies in the back of a furniture van ??

mindari
23-12-11, 05:09 PM
my evil mind tells me : OH YES there WILL be more to the story !!
no one could be that dumb ! could they ?
how would you fit that many ponies in the back of a furniture van ??


i shifted 7 in a two horse float no problem. was asked if i could do her a favour and pick them up as the paddock owner needed them out that day.
the look on their owners face when i arrived at her place and she offered to go back with me to pick up the "rest" was a study when i asked "what rest?"

"You didnt say there were more?"

Stocky
23-12-11, 05:14 PM
E

Not an attack but where does it say he left live animals. I note someone speculated the three in the other pile probably weren't dead, but its a bit weird that all 3 survivors would lie down in a saperate pile together.

Was there more to the story.

As stated here http://www.news.com.au/national/man-to-be-charged-over-deaths-of-25-ponies/story-e6frfkvr-1226228908310

"Two ponies survived the journey"

Bad Bones
23-12-11, 07:28 PM
There are still another 8 unaccounted for - maybe alive. Prime news showed photos & OH thinks they looked like ponies (not miniatures).

Now as to the perpetrators intent - well I'm sorry, but in my book but ignorance is not a defence. If you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't be doing it (without someoneto help who does know!).
This man was thoughtless & uncaring.

BB

acaciaalba
24-12-11, 01:48 AM
There are still another 8 unaccounted for - maybe alive. Prime news showed photos & OH thinks they looked like ponies (not miniatures).

Now as to the perpetrators intent - well I'm sorry, but in my book but ignorance is not a defence. If you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't be doing it (without someoneto help who does know!).
This man was thoughtless & uncaring.

BB

i agree with your bit about if you dont know what you are doing, dont do it >.
and i also agree ignorance is not a defence.
but seriously,,,!!! how ignorant do you have to be ???
any fool knows animals need air ! and humans need air !
common sense tells us ,,,we have to have air to live !
so for me,,,,i reckon lock the bastard in an airless container,,leave him there until he dies,,,let him suffer what those ponies suffered,