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Tyler (Guest)
15-03-02, 07:58 AM
What does everybody think of the new Australian Natural Horsemanship team?

anon (Guest)
15-03-02, 08:04 AM
WHO ????

Another Anon (Guest)
15-03-02, 08:39 AM
Not more NH rubbish.

JVJ (Guest)
15-03-02, 11:34 AM
Ah, what a rare delight is an open mind!!!!!!!

Could the person who started this thread perhaps elaborate a little...what is an 'Australian Natural Horsemanship Team"?

Que Pasa? (Guest)
15-03-02, 01:22 PM
Hello, hello?
Parlez-vous francais?
Non?
Ah, sprechen sie Deutsch?
No?
What is the new Australian Natural Horsemanship Team?
Where are they , who are they?
And where did you get to? :)

Tyler (Guest)
15-03-02, 02:26 PM
I should have said the Australian Natural Horsemanship Centre started by Ken Faulkner and kathy Caldow.

Que Pasa? (Guest)
15-03-02, 03:39 PM
Now, how do I know those names?
Did Kathy Caldow have something to do with the thing where they yarded a whole lot of brumbies, tamed them to various degrees, and "adopted' them out to people?
And Ken Faulkner- how do I know that name?
What style of riding?
What state, and where?

Watchman (Guest)
15-03-02, 04:10 PM
Hmm, Don't know who Kathy Caldow is but Ken Faulkner is ("was" is the rumour I heard, note I said "rumour") a PNH instructor, I think he is a level 3? Correct me anyone if I am wrong.

Tell us more someone? What is this about? Can anyone confirm or deny whether Ken is/isn't a PNH instructor now?

md (Guest)
16-03-02, 02:01 AM
Hmm Kathy and Ken are both Parelli endorsed instructors, hardly Australian, now if you were talking real Australian Natural Horsepersons, (though most of them get real embarrassed at the term "Natural" the likes of Steve Brady, John Chatterton, Andrew McClean etc....thems the ones that deserve the title, perhaps the big hats and the americans accents are finally wearing thin.

Tyler (Guest)
16-03-02, 02:52 AM
Not anymore. They are no longer endorsed pnh instructors and have started the Australian Natural Horsemanship Study Centre. I think its great that they are doing their own thing.

what? (Guest)
16-03-02, 03:59 AM
I thought Ken and Kathy were PNH level 3 - based at Esk - very good horsepeople by all accounts.

They're expanding their program, and having spoken to Kathy via phone and talked to friends who've been to clinics there I'd say they're very knowledgeable, friendly horsepeople.

Tyler (Guest)
16-03-02, 04:18 AM
What? Yes I agree entirely with you. They are very good and very knowlegable. I think they are great. I was only stating that they are no longer flying under the pnh banner anymore. They have gone out on their own and starting their own study centre.

md's friend (Guest)
16-03-02, 04:21 AM
MD ask Steve Brady, John Chatterton and Andrew Mclean WHO has taught them the most and after the horse I'm sure it would be an american, Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt or Buck Brannaman. Dont knock what you don't know and the accents on these Guys will never wear thin. These guys don't do the Natural thing either. They like to call it good horsemanship. And if Ken and Cathy want to start a Australian Natural Horsemanship Centre good on them THEY ARE Aussies. I am sure PP has helped them set it up.

Que pasa? (Guest)
16-03-02, 04:21 AM
Esk- where the heck is Esk?
esk-imo?
IMO Australian Horsewo/men would have to be Australian, and would really need to be in stock saddles (even ones with swinging fenders would do) to be able to grab the hearts of all us Aussies who love our Akubra-wearing Aussie image horseriders.
Still, I would like to hear more.
Please don't hesitate to fill up a whole page with info, or refer me to a web-page. :) cheers, and am glad you've brought this to light.
Maybe it'll become ANH?

what? (Guest)
16-03-02, 04:22 AM
why is it that so many people get to PNH3, then start wandering off from the PNH banner? is there no room at the upper elechons of PNH for exploration and greater learning?

what? (Guest)
16-03-02, 04:31 AM
Esk is in SE QLD, between Brisbane and Toowoomba.

I actually think the NH and PNH phenomena have been a godsend for Australian horsemanship.

Honestly, having come from a rural background with a long tradition in horses, I still think I've learned more in the last 5 years than I ever learned in the remainder of my life. And I also feel that the NH phenomena has taught a lot of people how to work with their horses better.

Just because the bushies have been doing it for a long time doesn't mean its the right way, I've seen some bushies do some pretty stupid and dangerous things, I've seen horses killed and ruined with no chance of redemption, NH has changed that.

There are some great horsemen and women from all walks of life, but for every great horseperson, there are about 20 bl**dy idiots out there.

what? (Guest)
16-03-02, 04:32 AM
I think you'll find that John Chatterton learned by either working it out himself and also from the Charro's in South America where he grew up - ask him to tell you his childhood in Panama stories sometime.

Marcus (Guest)
16-03-02, 04:37 AM
What I have heard is that PNH is under new Australian ownership, that Ken and Cathy were outted/left of their own accord, Judy Bragg of Bendigo Victoria was outted/left of her own accord and perhpas a few others accross the States including Phillip Nye (sp??) from Tasmania who left before the big "hoo ha". It is not my understanding that PP has helped Ken and Cathy set themselves up.

Ken and Cathy are both terrific horsepeople in their own right (PP training aside) and I wish them all the success in the world with my continued support. They are people with their own brains, do not try to brainwash people, and horses they train are first and foremost the most important factors for them.

Que Pasa (Guest)
16-03-02, 05:00 AM
Some good info there thanks,I thought Kathy was american, don't know why-
I agree that Natural Horsemanship and Good Horsemanship promotion has been great for this country, we have all ben able to apply it to whatever we do, be it dressage, showing,jumping,pleasure riding(and shouldn't all riding be riding for pleasure),
I just think, well, it's like just because I'm eating a Lasagne doesn't mean I have to wear the Italian National Costume, you know?
I love Australian Hats, somehow they suit our trees or something, I love, well, I love the imagery of Australian hats ,and opened -faced bridles, with big loose ringed snaffles on long red-hide reins.And I'm a Dressager, so,
well, do we have to take on their National Costume just to work the horse more thoughtfully?

md (Guest)
16-03-02, 05:27 AM
Wasn't running down Kathy or Ken, just if we are talking australian then definitely Kathy and Ken have mainly been taught by PP. Not knocking the NH scene just stating a fact, sure if someone wants to start up their own thing, good on them, but you would have to be deaf, dumb and blind to not see that it will just be PNH reincarnated, under a different banner ofcourse.
Don't think some of the above mentioned greats of Australian horsemanship will be that enthused re being told that all there learning was from the Americans, the horse yes. Look Tom Dorrance and the rest are amazing horsemen not doubting that for a moment. Just don't call it Australian Natural Horsmanship. Thats my opinion anyway. Cheers

For the record (Guest)
16-03-02, 09:13 AM
From Ken's Newsletter:
"The new Parelli Review Board has chosen to revoke the endorsement of Ken Faulker, Kathy Caldow, Judy Bragg & Carol Turvey. PNH stated this is due to non attendance at a recent meeting held by the new PNH administration. This meeting was scheduled at short notice and clashed with each instructors commitments to their students. This revocation is merely the withdrawal of approval to teach under the PNH banner and in no way affects he quality of instruction or the current course and demonstration calendar. Your access to premier instruction is unaffected by the decision of PNH, in fact you now have greater access to Ken Faulkner's skills than ever before. No restrictions, unlimited by regulations and tailored to suit you and your horse."

Watchman (Guest)
16-03-02, 03:10 PM
Thanks all for adding more info on this thread for the benefit of those of us who are not PNH'ers and don't know about these new developments.

MD, I am interested in your comment about Andrew McLean being "natural" (whether or not he is/would be embarrassed by the term I don't know), I have seen him quite a bit over the years and I would not have thought of him as being "natural". I have a different perception of him to your's, that's all, it's always interesting to hear what different people think :-)

Not natural (Guest)
16-03-02, 04:02 PM
Steve Brady was trained by Jim Wilton. He told me that himself.
He also said that he has changed and elaborated on Jims ideas as not all of them suited him.
I would hardly think that Steve could be said to have been heavily influenced by the Yanks. Hes been doing long before the likes of Pat hit the shores.
Credit where Credits due. Theres a damn lot of good come from Aussie horsemanship. It can't all be credited to the likes of Dorrance.

Que Pasa? (Guest)
17-03-02, 02:32 AM
And, furthermore, if you traced the origins of American Horsemanship, my guess is that you'd find they were heavily influenced by Cavalry training methods taken to the US by the likes of the French, who dicovered the flexions of the jaw from the ground and the decontracting effect of these on the body and mind of the horse. Ever read any of the old Military Training Manuals- heavily influenced by the likes of Baucher IMHO.
And the use of the curb- isn't that where that's come from too?
Or where did they suddenly produce that idea from?
Don't tell me we're going to arrive back in Europe all of a sudden in our quest for where it all began? Shock horror!!
Have a look at the photo of Tom Dorrance's dad in the True Unity book, and my oh my, he could be a Dressage rider!
Oh, and they sit really tall with long stirrups- Baucher, and before him many others promoted this same seat! (see engravings in the The Maneige Royal ,by Pluvinel ,date 1624.
So , consider the work in hand,flexions of the jaw, curbs, the seat of the rider and the lateral work and then get back to me on the origins of it all please :)

md (Guest)
17-03-02, 02:59 PM
What I mean by Andrew being 'natural' (not that I class anyone natural if truth be known, if you want natural leave the blooooody horse by himself in the paddock) is that he is a thinking horseman, who uses horse psychology and pressure and release type training. Heh even good old Tom Roberts was an early day 'Natural'.
John Chatterton was not trained by the americans, but mainly self taught and in his younger years growing up, as per the poster earlier, Steve Brady and Heath Harris were JD Wilton trained as per above post.
These trainers are Natural, in that they are naturals at what they do and achieve, but unfortunately due to the BIG Hatted Americans, the connetations that come with the 'Natural' title can be a liitle too much to bear.
Much can be learned from all good trainers, just irks me that a predominately Parelli trained person can call their new establishment 'Australian Natural Horsemanship' and I'm not even Australian, but very proud of the achievements of my above mentioned 'Horsemen". Cheers

Reata (Guest)
18-03-02, 10:14 AM
Que Pasa, What a lovely photo. One hand, horse, soft, round and collected. And all with a float in the reins. Please tell me where you can see dressage like this!!!! I would love to read the Baucher book, I have heard lots about it. There are some very good horsemen and women in Europe. But there are some extra bad ones too. IMHO it is alot easier to have the horse do things through force. ie: forced head set, forced collection forced you name it. Than it is to have a willing communication between horse and man. The latter takes skill and and a great feel for the animal, something that most people have not the time for. Fast results is what people want not True Unity.

midnight (Guest)
18-03-02, 11:18 AM
Reata, sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one. This is what you said:

IMHO
>it is alot easier to
>have the horse do things
>through force. ie: forced
>head set, forced collection forced
>you name it. Than
>it is to have a
>willing communication between horse and
>man.

Although in a way you could be correct - but are you talking about dressage here, or something else?

To do dressage correctly you must have what you call True unity. You can try all you like to "force" the horse into his collection, head set, etc., but the result will never ever be aesthetically pleasing. What is forced looks forced and horrible. True Unity is what dressage masters the world over constantly seek. It's nothing new - dressage people call it "Harmony". You can get a very big score in dressage if you and your horse show "Harmony".

Sure, there are riders who just stick the spurs in and make the curb chain tight and away they go, but they're a dying race, I hope :-)

So no, I don't believe that using force is easier at all. Unless maybe if you're a big man on a little horse??

Que Pasa (Guest)
18-03-02, 12:37 PM
Reata,
If you ever have the opportunity to see Kyra Kyrkland, Isabell Werth, or Anky van Grunsven you wouldn't say that.They all continually talk about softness and lightness and inmpulsion. Or if you have an opportunity to look at the pictures in the army manuals from back in about 1920, or in books by General de Carpentary ( a founder of the FEI), in books by Nuno Oliveira, Reiner Klimke, Etienne Beudant, Steinbrecht. What do they all have in common?
They all talk about harmony, unity, 'descente de main', the total relaxation of all the aids, and the relationship between this and the horse finding it's true balance. It's never going to go away because it works , and people like you and others as well can recognise the difference immediately. To me , it's the difference between riding as a sport, and riding as an art (note that one of Oliveira's book's is called 'Classical Principles of the Art of Training Horses'). The difference is especially noticeable once the horse is doing the really difficult movements.
Anyway , they are out there, just as there's probably Western riders out there riding well, and others riding with a style that has plenty of room for improvement.

Once bitten!!!! (Guest)
18-03-02, 02:01 PM
I thought i'd let you know that you should be very careful with who you get to help you with Natural Horsemanship. I currently own a 3 yo (who was 2 and a half at the time)and I thought i'd get some help with ground work because he was still abit young in the mind... Well, bad mistake!!!! I had a friend (who has her level 2 Parelli certificate) help me with the Parelli methods and at the time I thought it was working, however after a month into the training, my lovely 3 yo was turning into a nightmare and it got that bad that I was thinking of selling him. He was starting to rear and buck on the lunge (this is the driving game). He got to a point that whenever I was walking him from his paddock to the arena, he would buck and rear and have a song and dance. I thought i had to stop the Parelli teaching and get on with what i really enjoyed which was dressage.
I now have my quiet horse that I once had, however, there is one thing I can't get rid of and that's the rearing. whenever he gets excited by the surroundings, he rears and bucks...on the lead!!!
I suggest that you get professional help with Natural horsemanship and advice.
Good Luck

Reata (Guest)
18-03-02, 02:38 PM
Midnight, of course I agree with you. Some people can tell by looking how the picture is being produced. I am not talking about the top dressage riders but the thousands of others who force the collection with sidereins, curb chains and just plain brute strength. Force is easier than unity because the tools for force can be bought at the store. Unity cannot be bought.

Reata (Guest)
18-03-02, 02:47 PM
Que Pasa, I saw Anky at Equitana (masterclass) and was very impressed. I am not into competive dressage but as I love to ride good horses, dressage is what I do!!!

Reata (Guest)
18-03-02, 03:00 PM
Once Bitten, so sad to hear of your bad experience. Thats the trouble with PNH. They give out level one and level 2 to people who have very little feel. They can do the tasks but that is about all. Most and not all, don't have the overall picture. They are very mechanical and cannot recognise the small tries from the horse. Some horses will put up with this but the more sensitive ones will not. Don't give Good Horsemanship the flick, Just get a good instructor. (Phil Rodey. Wayne Anderson.
Ken Falkner.)

Que Pasa? (Guest)
18-03-02, 03:04 PM
Hey, I think we are all agreeing for once!
Isn't that great!?
:) :) :)